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Well that's OK, it's just what stuck in my mind after reading two pages of posts. Maybe these comments had something to do with it?
Oh yes definitely!
I'm not sure I'm getting your understanding here Tish, the name should be about beliefs right, how is Torah Keepers not about our beliefs?
Baptists are Baptists because they believe in full immersion.
Lutherans are Lutherans because they believe in the teachings of Martin Luther
Not at all bad - not perfect, mind youbut then nothing would be! This, however, seems to cover nearly every issue ...
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
We just changed the sub forums to names about beliefs not people groups, let's stick with the directionI'm not sure I'm getting your understanding here Tish, the name should be about beliefs right, how is Torah Keepers not about our beliefs?
Baptists are Baptists because they believe in full immersion.
Lutherans are Lutherans because they believe in the teachings of Martin Luther
LolWhat about southern baptist Messianics? Or 7th day Baptists?
True, but the forum for the 'Two House, Ephramites, Sacred Name" would be an area that they could discuss the beliefs that fall under those names. Followers of the Wootens could discuss why they think they are part of Israel. If that came into the MJ or Torah Keepers area it would be a disaster and nothing but debate, but if kept in their own forum that would not happen.Easy G (G²);60101883 said:One issue that came to my mind is that many who may be 'Two House, Ephramitse, Sacred Name" would be with the Torah Keepers since they often overlap..same with the Christians.
But apart from that, I agree with you on what you noted
Oh sure, I defiantly agree! Absolutely. That is why I suggested having one forum with three divisions.Debate is definitly where the issues arise, some come in here for that purpose alone
True, but the forum for the 'Two House, Ephramites, Sacred Name" would be an area that they could discuss the beliefs that fall under those names. Followers of the Wootens could discuss why they think they are part of Israel. If that came into the MJ or Torah Keepers area it would be a disaster and nothing but debate, but if kept in their own forum that would not happen.
If someone wanted to debate about their beliefs in this matter each of the three forums would have a formal debate area just for that.
I think this way the debating would be divided. As there are two kinds of debates.
One is where you are trying to go against another beliefs, policies etc and prove you way is the correct way. This would be where the formal debate areas would come into play.
The second is about views, how you see a certain thing. This is done with those who have a core of central beliefs and want to discuss (drash) out a certain established way or a certain verses, things like that. These are the kinds of discussion or 'soft debates' that each group will be allowed to enjoy in their own forum areas.
This I think is the crux of what Talmidim has been trying to emphasize. We start off with a good biblical study, looking for others opinions to see what could be teased out from the text and someone comes in and says 'You can't do X,Y,Z, because that goes against Yeshua's words'. Then the whole great discussion gets derailed by having to take the time to debate this.
It's frustrating and this is what eventually brings disharmony, and name calling and flaming etc.
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Cable network show MONK, but this reminds me of an episode where Monk was trying to tell the Captain some important info about the case they were trying to solve on his wife's murder. They were in NYC and out on the street at the time and everytime Monk opened his mouth to speak, this guy with a jackhammer started it up and drowned him out. He then would shut it off, Monk would start all over again and the jackhammer would cut in. This when on at least six or seven times, to the point where, if Monk was not such a pacifist type he would have gone over to the Jackhammer guy and cut the switch or something.
Everyone has a breaking point and just because we don't push the report button doesn't mean we aren't being harassed like this and sometimes have to resort to 'acting out' to get the proper attention. Sometimes the only solution is separation. It's not about getting along so much as wanting a quiet place to fellowship and study.
Didn't know you crossed over. Did someone at your church introduce you to them in your studies?Don't y'all be talking bad about my Southern Baptist Messianics now.
Oh sure, I defiantly agree! Absolutely. That is why I suggested having one forum with three divisions.
It would look like GT without the general area.
You would click on 'MESSIANIC' from the "Faith Groups' on the Main CF page.
Once inside you would see not a forum with a list of posts, but instead three links.
- Messianic Judaism
- Torah Keepers
- Two House, Ephramite, Sacred Name
Each would have the definition I posted before that way each person falling under Messianic, would know which to go to. Each of these forums would have general rules for each group and an Icon. Each of these forums would have a Formal debate area. The rest of each forum will be for gentle debate as in drashing, and discussion.
No but I was reading about them this morning. Can't remember how I got to their site.Easy G (G²);60106389 said:Didn't know you crossed over. Did someone at your church introduce you to them in your studies?
Sorry I'm so behind and I haven't even caught up yet - but I have to respond as I go... and taxes went well BTW. Baruch HaShem. We're gonna live!!!See that's why we don't label . As soon as labels come in we find flaming offensive posts follow , people don't need their worship preferences labeled and especially by others who don't know their heart,
If folks want to pick an icon that reflects their denomination or faith group fine, but aside from that or a small notation in their siggy or title , we don't allow labels or name calling from those around them. I suggest we don't make a list of groups to segregate as that will encourage the labels, what we can do is have subjects off topic in here
We already have a few
Anti paul
Non tinitarian
And anti Torah campaigns
We can have a few more if you want and we can have a list of offensive labels
Some one said two house is a belief and therefore debatable, true but if in that debate you associate it with folks who post here and they haven't said "hey everyone , I'm two house" then you are offending them:
Many may appear one way because of similar traits but that doesn't make them that way
My congregation is UMJC, they are not one law, but half our congregation is gentile and they observe Torah to some degree, from maybe kosher diet to completely observant...that doesn't make us one law although if looking to place labels you could deffinately see the opportunity to liable us that way since we all follow the same Torah laws, some more than others
This is just an example why labels are not good to make here.
Ok so if there was a list of offensive labels what would that be ?
I think to answer that - we've had so many Christians either intentionally or unintentionally come to our forum to show us the error of our ways. So when anyone comes in with Christinese our defenses are up. We've been burned too many times by welcoming someone in and then have them take advantage of the welcome. Honestly I'm not sure how to alleviate this.Fair enough I think we all do that at times, sometimes we are pleasantly surprised when we find out we were wrong too, I've seen a few here discover that thru out this thread
Most who come here are not welcome if they sound to Christian and that could be a problem as it does take time to become aquatinted with the style of different groups....anything we can do to lighten up,
ideas?
Deferential Posting, you could also call it Positive Posting
I believe that one of the main things we have to take off the table first of all is who is right and who is wrong ---- or said in another way, who is doing it the right way and who is doing it the wrong way. Let me give a brief scenario.
It might seem rather simplistic but it is sometimes the simple things that are the most important. It will be illustrated by two posters who have stated they are Messianic Jews.
Problematic Posting:
Poster 1: On Shabbat we do A & B.
Poster 2: We don't do it that way, A & B should not even be a part of Shabbat. The real observance of Shabbat is C & D. Doing A & B on Shabbat is not what God has told us to do. How can you even think of such a thing?
Poster 1: Since when do you have a direct line to God? I think doing C & D on Shabbat is not only wrong but blasphemous. You aught to be ashamed.
Poster 2: You've proven what kind of MJ you are again and again. If you were really MJ you would do C & D and quit trying to dictate to the rest of us how holy you are and that we only need to do A & B.
Comment, in the above discussion you will notice the exchange of information and the beginning of discussion but it quickly goes into holier than thou, flaming, goading, and negativity with each trying to tell the other how right they are and how wrong they are. This is sad and happens all too often. It's roots lay in each saying that their way is the right way. Neither is showing any affection, courtesy or respect. Neither is acting deferentially, open minded or accepting.
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Deferential Posting:
Poster 1: On Shabbat we do A & B.
Poster 2: That's interesting. We don't do that. We do C & D on Shabbat. (notice the lack of putdowns and slurs and the courtesy at the beginning?)
Poster 1: I've only heard of doing C & D on Shabbat in passing would you tell me about it? (Notice the interest and not critisizing the other poster because he observes Shabbat differently?)
Poster 2: Well, C & D is ............. and we do it because..........I've heard of A & B but frankly, it didn't seem to fit. How do you incorporate A & B into Shabbat? I'm not sure that we will but I would like to hear about it. (The poster is being openminded and more importantly respectful of the other poster).
Poster 1: Doing A & B ............and helps us honor God's..............and we also believe that ................. I don't know if doing C & D is something that we would incorporate but it is something to think about. Thanks for sharing something this personal with me. (No criticism, openminded, shows affection)
Poster 2: I enjoy hearing about how different MJ's observe Shabbat and you've opened my eyes to a couple of things. I really appreciate it. Have you heard about the upcoming convention..................
Deferential or Positive Posting is not sacrificing one's beliefs. It is giving the other poster the benefit of the doubt. It is not necessarily adopting what the other believes or is trying to say but it is affirming the person's right to say it, not calling him wrong just because there is a difference in opinion, and treating each other as part of the Body. There is also a distinct lack of the destructive elements of posting that include things like flaming, goading, harassing, judgmentalism, and condemnation. Also, respect is key.
If I see any actually posts that show the above I'll copy and paste them in .
Everyone has a breaking point and just because we don't push the report button doesn't mean we aren't being harassed like this and sometimes have to resort to 'acting out' to get the proper attention. Sometimes the only solution is separation. It's not about getting along so much as wanting a quiet place to fellowship and study.
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