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I have 2 homemade from scratch steel-cut Irish oatmeal and bananna muffins..who want's em?
also have 3 bowls full of homemade mexican chicken soup.
someone out there must be hungry............
So from your statement of knowledge you are affiliated with this group too?And, the only place I hear 'Torah' used when people don't really mean the Torah but mean the Mosaic law, is among Two House, CTOMC, and some in MBI used to or other groups like that.
Tish, that is a false observation, I was not ignoring you. Taking a class on the same subject is not the same thing as seeing someone else use it to their own agenda. That is the case here as Tal has tried over and over to explain. Please don't accuse me of injustly judgeing someone, I didn't read all the data that Tal did, but I read enough and heard enough to agree with what he is saying. The AMC are against Torah observance, basically calling it an fruitless endeavor.Like I said before and you keep ignoring, Ani and I took the class at the MJAA conference and you are doing an injustice to the hearer as it was ment to unite folks to the Torah observant believers, not make light of Torah observance
So now I have smeared the video? :o Please forgive me if I gave you that impression. I was trying to offer an objective response.
I know that the presentation you heard at the MJAA was a positive one. I don't question that. I trust you. I wish that you would trust me too, at least a little.
Not being there with you, I did not see the presentation that you did. But I downloaded the video that was posted by THE TEMPLAR on this thread. I went to the websites. I downloaded the Powerpoint presentation, the spreadsheet and all of the related material. The study itself is quite interesting. I do have some issues with it, but it is very informative if a bit skewed to the AMC side of things.
What I saw in the video was perhaps a little different that the conference presentation you attended. Did you actually watch this video all the way through? After all, the MJAA conference you attended probably addresses a pretty wide audience. However, Rabbi Steve Shermett was commenting directly to his congregation, an AMC congregation that subscribes to the core belief that, "the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers".
My point isn't to criticize Steve Shermett, his congregation or their beliefs. My point was that Steve Shermett's summation reflected his doctrinal position that is by nature, anti-Torah observant. He believes that you shouldn't even try to observe Torah. He stated plainly as a summary statement of this study, "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to!"
Is this what you heard at the MJAA conference; don't even bother to try to keep Torah? Because I consider this type of sentiment anti-Torah rhetoric. Am I wrong?
Hi!
That is exactly what I found too. The web version is much better that the video that was posted of Steve Shermett's take, as summarized to his congregation. The study itself is very interesting.
I downloaded all the files including the spreadsheet. But instead of taking the test, I have been going through and comparing his summation of the mitzvah to the associated scripture listed. So I had a little bit different take than him because of how I understand the p'sh*t. Still it is very thought provoking and a great read. As soon as I finish, I'll listen to his presentation again and take the test with a greater understanding of the actual mitvahs.
Sister Qnts2,I agree. Yeshua often engaged in traditions and did not oppose these things as long as they did not go against scripture. While Jesus was telling the people to obey those who sat on Moses seat (the law said one could not oppose or ignore a judges or priest ruling), do not do as they do.
But Yeshua did heavily criticize those Rabbinic rulings (judges) which 'made the law of no effect' or 'laid heavy burdens' on the people.
By the time much of the Talmud was written, it is fairly easy to argue that the courts were not according to the law, or were making rulings above their authority (absence of High Priest). (After Yavneh)
So from your statement of knowledge you are affiliated with this group too?
Sister Qnts2,
I want to offer you a formal apology. After going back and re-reading some of our exchanges, I realize that I was acting and speaking out of ignorance of both your background and your intent. You were new to this forum and I was hardly a good host, much less a brother in Messiah. Forgive me.
I think we are both pretty type A in some respects and passionate about our beliefs. But that is a good thing. Much better than lukewarm I'd wager. Nonetheless, our exchanges should not have provoked me to anger as it sometimes did. I promise to try to be more understanding and gracious in the future.
b'Shalom
Shalom Sis,Tish, that is a false observation, I was not ignoring you. Taking a class on the same subject is not the same thing as seeing someone else use it to their own agenda. That is the case here as Tal has tried over and over to explain. Please don't accuse me of injustly judgeing someone, I didn't read all the data that Tal did, but I read enough and heard enough to agree with what he is saying. The AMC are against Torah observance, basically calling it an fruitless endeavor.
I witnessed the same thing, you are not alone Tal.
Whoo Hoo! There is a celebration in the heavenlies right now! Thank you!Thank you very much. I am sure I said some things out of line in the heat of our exchanges. I apologize.
And I agree we are both type A and passionate.
Blessings brother,
Jan
I've always known we can't observe all 613 mitzvot. Common sense tells me that. But it is interesting to read each of the 613 and prayerfully see which ones do apply. And if we'd stop a moment to let the dust settle on this subject we'd see that many are, as Yeshua said, summed up in loving HaShem and each other. If we do that we'll find we are observing more of the mitzvot than we realize.Hi!
That is exactly what I found too. The web version is much better that the video that was posted of Steve Shermett's take, as summarized to his congregation. The study itself is very interesting.
I downloaded all the files including the spreadsheet. But instead of taking the test, I have been going through and comparing his summation of the mitzvah to the associated scripture listed. So I had a little bit different take than him because of how I understand the p'sh*t. Still it is very thought provoking and a great read. As soon as I finish, I'll listen to his presentation again and take the test with a greater understanding of the actual mitvahs.
Yup!I've always known we can't observe all 613 mitzvot. Common sense tells me that. But it is interesting to read each of the 613 and prayerfully see which ones do apply. And if we'd stop a moment to let the dust settle on this subject we'd see that many are, as Yeshua said, summed up in loving HaShem and each other. If we do that we'll find we are observing more of the mitzvot than we realize.
Tish, that is a false observation, I was not ignoring you. Taking a class on the same subject is not the same thing as seeing someone else use it to their own agenda. That is the case here as Tal has tried over and over to explain. Please don't accuse me of injustly judgeing someone, I didn't read all the data that Tal did, but I read enough and heard enough to agree with what he is saying. The AMC are against Torah observance, basically calling it an fruitless endeavor.
I witnessed the same thing, you are not alone Tal.
I agree, his points miss the boat on many levels, not just in the details, to name of few..
1) The Brother marrying another brother's wife, lol, first of all, the Torah allows the brother to no do so, and also, to say that Messianics do not practice this also made me laugh, how many opportunities or chances will Messianics have to do this? Not many.
2) He never mentions Tzitzit, and quite a few others that come off the top of my head.
3) He says most MTP, do not sleep in Sukkah's for 7 days, ummmm, the only MTP that I know of that do not, have either a medical condition, are elderly or some other problem... I have done this with many others for many years.
4) He brought up how most work on the Holy days, lol, again I don't know these 'most' people, I know more people who said they are not going to work, and that they can fire them if they want, and were not fired.
5) Me and my wife went through and cleaned out our closets full of mixed wool and linen, and purchase clothing with those guidelines, and I know a bunch of other families that do as well.
His arguments are weak, and do not go through all the applicable laws. And ultimately miss the point, this is not a comparison to see who is better and who does more, I could probably come up with a list that show a 10% to 15% difference, but that is not what makes me and others Torah observant... It is a heart that seeks obedience to God, through His commandments, something which is a lifestyle, something which plays a importance on proper interpretation and molds our world view, etc.
On the other hand, I admire his seeking of unity, and I am for that, so I credit him for doing such and I do hope there can be some form of unity, even among all the disagreements.
In his defense he said MOST Torah positive. If he would have mentioned tefflin would that have made a difference. You criticized the guy and everyone criticized Tishri for posting a video that is exact.
So the audio was more eloquent? What's the deal here? The video he says we are not under the law but in the audio he says people that say that do so anyway because of the greatest commandment?
In defense of Tishri she deserves an apology seriously.
I can tell you for a fact that I have experienced that here Sister Tishri.
Since you're looking, start here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7625317/
There's a wealth of example in this thread.
This compulsion for a Messianic to be sooooo correct regarding dietary law is not observant of the freedom found in Yeshua.
In fact, it goes against Yeshua and it goes against God's gift to us in Yeshua.
I'm not concerned with whether I'm making a Jew stumble or not.
He has the Law for his salvation.
I have Yeshua and in Him I am free. The dietary law is not salvific.
I never heard the audio, I only watched the video. What audio are we talking about?
Also, how does he come to the conclusion of most, as I stated, most of the MTP I know, are different than his 'most'.
Thank you, I will give it a listen, forgive me if I am being too harsh, I talk pretty straight, but I don't mean to be too critical.
now that's what i'm talkin' about.It is a heart that seeks obedience to God, through His commandments, something which is a lifestyle, something which plays a importance on proper interpretation and molds our world view, etc.
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