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Then let me clarify my statement:
Christian theology, in general, maintains that the only relationship one may have with the Torah is adversarial. It demands and does not relent. It condemns, and brings only cursing.
Wait a minute! You're already judging this person. The fact is we don't know. The believer keeps Lev 11, how is that keeping around his/ her brethren? What about Brit Milah?
The fact is it is contradictory but we can't assume this believer does it for show. Is that the only possible explanation?
Help me out Marc, I might have misread what you quoted, but I read someone who said the Law has no binding in the life of a believer, or better yet, has no authority, meaning it is borderline worthless, other than having some great historical purpose... Did I misunderstand that? Did the person me something other than what they said?
I am not going to speak for the person or pretend to know the persons heart or thoughts . All I'm saying is we can't judge. Now if this believer totally discounted commands by what they do then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Got me scratching my head because I don't want to judge.
Well, I don't want to judge either. I was simply addressing what the person wrote... the person viewed the Torah as no longer serving a purpose in the life of a believer, so I am left with taking the persons words for what they wrote, and thus concluding that by their own words... The only other conclusion is that they either lied or are severely confused.
OK I just emailed the person to get more clarification. Maybe they'll join here.
Can a Jewish person without Yeshua, be saved, if they are sincerely dedicated to keeping the law?
1. No one is called to observe exactly the same way all the time as someone else in the rest of the world. There are different flavors of Judaism the world over due to the various places Jews live. Someone in Yemen isn't going to observe Torah or the Talmud in the same way as someone in Scandinavia. Someone in South Australia won't be observing as someone in America.
We need to recognise a healthy difference in observation where this is concerned. No one is to be condemned for difference in observation, as even in America, differences are observed from shuk to shuk. No?
2. There are different interpretations of what "The law"/"the Torah" is. We need to have definable ways of understanding where everyone is posting from, and possibly which organization they align with. This would create less confusion as to where we are posting from. It is not to ghettoize anyone, but to create a level playing field where our scrolls are not giving us this.
We have individuals that say they obey Torah and are observant, and those of us who are are wondering what level of kashrut they hold to, when WHAM a post comes up by that poster that aligns more along the line of a Hebrew Christian organization that teaches against keeping Kosher on any level, and that it's silly to celebrate anything other than major Jewish holidays - we have a problem. This is where MUCH of the arguing is coming from, and no I've not participated because it has been quite difficult to suss out the different flavors of people without it ending in a tar and feathering.
3. We need everyone to respect each other and approach arguments POSITIVELY. IF we keep addressing posts in the negative, we're just going to see more and more fur fly.
I believe if we did a book series together as a study, perhaps starting with the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, and then moving on to something like "Boundaries" By Townsend and Cloud - we might get somewhere. We might better understand the other posters, their backgrounds and the abuse that has gone on in their past, and we might figure out some better boundaries for each other without having to have the moderators and administration step in.
I like G's suggestion of Skype, but the reality is that we live in vastly different time zones and continents, so this will be difficult. I can't imagine a time where I could catch Contra for example, in that he's around 9 hours difference from me. I might catch you or Ani in the wee hours of the morning, because you're in California. I could catch anyone here in Europe rather easily, because our time difference is probably plus or minus 2 hours vs the vast difference of -5 to -9 hours.
We do need fellowship threads, but those are not going to happen with the break down we currently have. It's like trying to thrust two opposing football fan groups together. It's going to end in riot and much damage.
We need clear rules so we can work together. Until those rules and protections are in place, no one will feel completely at ease opening up their hearts again, when they've been stomped all over with spiked shoes.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but haven't you seen the same behavior on several Jewish forums where people suss out what someone else believes and practices and then takes a "hands off" approach when they find out that the other poster's observance level is not the same, nor are their beliefs?
I sure have.
There will be different views and opinions depending on the level of one's orthodoxy as to how they feel and interact with other Orthodox Jews, with Conservative, Conservadox, Reform, Reconstructionist and any other flavor there can possibly be of other Jews.
Shoot, you walk in the door of a Synagogue and once someone knows your name, they want to know who you're related to, where you're from, if you were raised Jewish or not, and how you came to be there, in the first 5 minutes. It's enough to give the uninitiated a panic attack - but it happens!
Yes, some are!!
Exactly, so we have to find out our healthy balance.
And no one has argued against this. But, we have different levels of observance here, and those of us who believe like others here, wish to discuss that level of observance unhindered. This is not something out of the ordinary.
And yes, I have met many Jews who have had absolutely no level of Jewish upbringing come into the movement and not know what to do. They come in to learn how to have a healthy balance in their belief and observance.
"To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish. "
To those not familiar with Messianic Judaism, it may seem as if we're picking at nits, but truth be told, we're working out issues together with individuals in a way that a home group or cell group might not allow.
See, here is some of the problem though. It is not so much the stance of the AMC, which is aligned with many protestant denominations who are against Messianic observance of Torah, but how they react when you ask if they are Messianic. "No, we are not."
I do find their reaction, and the teaching of others such as Arnold Fruchtenbaum as "Anti-Torah" as I am sure several others in this forum do as well. However, that does not have to be a bad thing, IF we have clear lines of the differences of beliefs, how those beliefs are interpreted and how they are carried out, for others to see and understand prior to posting in the forum.
How the AMC/J4J and a Messianic congregation that is aligned with a mainline protestant denomination will see and teach Torah will be entirely different from how someone in the MJAA, UMJC and any other denominational Messianic movement around the world will. In fact, our level of observance here in Germany is vastly different than the majority who are in the Beit Sar Shalom umbrella. We align more with the local Jewish community in our beliefs and practices, because we do not worship on Sun/Wed, do not keep the Christian festivals (there are many more than are observed in the USA), and how we dress. You could pick us out as different in the crowd every time.
It is not a bad thing. It is just "different". We are all at our different levels and walks, hopefully because G-d led us there and we have a job to do where we are. If not, we need to do some serious soul searching and find out what we should be doing.
In the meantime, we are here together, and need to work out how to respond to each other in a constructive way, without making more fur fly, or call on helpers to tar and feather someone.
Qnts2 said:Actually, most Messianic Jews do not use the term Torah and actually mean the Mosaic law. That is just plain confusing. And more uniquely a term used in One Law but not generalized in Messianic Judaism.
{snip}
Messianic Jewish people hold the Torah in high respect, but that does not mean Messianic Jewish people believe the Mosaic law carried forward as a unit into the New Covenant.
MJ does practice Jewish tradition, but that is one of the differences in Messianic Judaism. It is based on Jewish culture, and worship is more Jewish. It is a comfortable place for Jewish believers. Torah and tradition are intertwined but Torah does not mean Mosaic law/covenant. It means Torah, the five books of Moses.
there is quite a lot here with which believe, perhaps nearly allQnts2 said:When you have a people who were raised in the Torah as the definition of their religious beliefs, the Torah will be held in high regard. The Torah is the words of God. The Nach is the revelation of God and the NT is the words and revelation of God.
Unlike people who come to know Yeshua from other religions, such a Buddhism, the basis of their belief is unbiblical. Jewish people whose basis of belief is biblical, the only real turning a Jewish person does in their belief is turn from unbelief in Jesus as the Messiah to belief in Jesus the Messiah. Even the Messiah is a Jewish belief but Judaism rejected and did not recognize Yeshua as the Messiah, which was wrong. So, Jewish believers are never anti-Torah. Jewish believers see changes in the Mosaic law and the New Covenant, but that never makes a Jewish believer anti-Torah.
From the MJAA:
Messianic Judaism is a Biblically based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.
To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.
Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding. Historical and Biblical evidence demonstrates that following Yeshua was initially an entirely Jewish concept. Decades upon decades of persecution, division, and confused theology all contributed to the dichotomy between Jews and believers in Yeshua that many take for granted today.
may i be allowed just a bit of grace here to answer your question?
in Hebrews 11:2 we read:
"God gave his approval to people in days of old because of their faith."
and in verse 39:
'All of these people we have mentioned received God's approval because of their faith; yet none of them received all that God had promised."
i won't go further because i don't want to go against the SoF. this is only posted in fellowship to give hope and reassurance.
PLEASE WAIT . . . THIS IS A POST IN PROGRESS!!!
I understand this is your experience, but my experience with Jewish Messianics it much different, both leadership and congregational members.
The vast majority, say 80-90%, DO believe that Torah (written Law) is eternal and both Torah and all covenants are still in effect. The majority of those believe that the Oral Law is also appropriate to follow when it does not directly conflict with the Torah.
Most Messianics, Jewish and non-Jewish, with whom I've had contact, folks from all over this country and quite a few places around the world, frequently speak of Torah when gathered for worship or study. By Torah is usually meant the written Law but can also include the oral Law depending on speaker and context.
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
Public meaning like on paper?
Shabbat is obvious and so are the Feast celebrations , Purim and Channukah etc which are made more public. Brit Milah and bar/ bat Mitvah , shiva are less public but are public to the congregation. This is an example. If you were going to classify I would say in between reform/conservative Judaism. Reminds me how I was raised.
Interesting my brother is raising their kids in conservative Judaism and not much difference to fight over except Yeshua of course.
Might have missed some.
I'm not sure what public means. I assume something is done which is seen by others.
Qnts2 said:When defining Messianic Judaism, I lean more towards Reform as the minimal definition. Which would be the High Holy days. I am trying to be inclusive as the MJAA tries to be inclusive of every Jewish believer who identifies themselves as a member of the Jewish people.
I understand this is your experience, but my experience with Jewish Messianics it much different, with both leadership and congregational members.
The vast majority, say 80-90%, DO believe that Torah (written Law) is eternal and both Torah and all covenants are still in effect. The majority of those believe that the Oral Law is also appropriate to follow when it does not directly conflict with the Torah.
Most Messianics, Jewish and non-Jewish, with whom I've had contact, folks from all over this country and quite a few places around the world, frequently speak of Torah when gathered for worship or study. By Torah is usually meant the written Mosaic Law but can also include the oral Rabbinic Law depending on speaker and context. In some contexts Torah can also mean The 5 Books or even the entire T'NaKh. This is not merely a Messianic standard but has held true with some non-Messianic Jews with whom I've had contact.
there is quite a lot here with which believe, perhaps nearly all
Another thing just in general.
In a large number of "Messianic," and even a few Messianic, communities keeping individually chosen Traditions is quite often about the desire to appear as or identify with the Jewish community at large, for various reasons, while still eschewing the keeping of Torah.
In most cases they are unaware that the Traditions are actually Rabbinic Law. In many cases where they are aware that the Traditions are Rabbinic Law they try to throw out the Rabbinics by finding some marked individualized way to do the Tradition, differently, like putting the tzitzit on the belt loops of their cut-offs or the hem of their dresses.
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
Hi,
This is a report free thread.
***We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.
***This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.
***And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.
***Thoughts ?
Much better discussion today. I am proud of all of us. But going back to my questions that I posted early this morning I will list them again because they are important and primary (not the only thing) but primary to this thread and the reason for it. Here is the OP by our Tishri.
Going well. As we see there are various flavors if you will.
Yes David, things are going better.Much better discussion today. I am proud of all of us. But going back to my questions that I posted early this morning I will list them again because they are important and primary (not the only thing) but primary to this thread and the reason for it. Here is the OP by our Tishri.
So how are we doing with this? Are we making progress? What can we do to make more progress, both with the OP and in treating each other even better and discussing the OP and suggestions with less emotion and more kindness and proactivity? I must reiterate we are discussing much more civilized and loving today. Praise God.
Shalom.
As far as the Talmud, I would find it difficult to argue that it is a requirement to hold the Talmud in a place of honor. While the Talmud is mostly Jewish style debates of varying opinions, there are some opinions which are not highly regarded. So that would depend on what 'honor' means.
This is from a statement of faith:
We recognize the value of traditional Jewish literature, but only where it is supported by or conformable to the Word of God. We regard it as in no way binding upon life or faith.
And for MJ's, maybe MJ's hold to some sort of personal or public observance of Torah or Jewish tradition.
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