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that's because they are not necessarily mainstream denominations, but there are parts of Christianity who do hold those opinions mentioned, and who do take the idea of grace too far in the opposite direction from the Talmud.
nontheless, in this forum the Talmud is and should rightly be held in a place of honor. that is not the question.
the question (from what i can tell) is the degree of the practice of their beliefs that MJ's engage in, or the degree to which the Torah is important in their lives. And that again is an individual choice for everyone, and not something that can be mandated as part of being an MJ.
what could be stated in the SOF though is the belief that MJ's here should actively desire to follow Torah in their lives. That would put the emphasis on the importance of Torah, and yet still leave the following as a personal responsibility done within the limits of the member's understanding and ability, G_d helping them.
what do you think? would that encompass the beliefs and practices of both sides?
So now I have smeared the video? :o Please forgive me if I gave you that impression. I was trying to offer an objective response.
I know that the presentation you heard at the MJAA was a positive one. I don't question that. I trust you. I wish that you would trust me too, at least a little.
Not being there with you, I did not see the presentation that you did. But I downloaded the video that was posted by THE TEMPLAR on this thread. I went to the websites. I downloaded the Powerpoint presentation, the spreadsheet and all of the related material. The study itself is quite interesting. I do have some issues with it, but it is very informative if a bit skewed to the AMC side of things.
What I saw in the video was perhaps a little different that the conference presentation you attended. Did you actually watch this video all the way through? After all, the MJAA conference you attended probably addresses a pretty wide audience. However, Rabbi Steve Shermett was commenting directly to his congregation, an AMC congregation that subscribes to the core belief that, "the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers".
My point isn't to criticize Steve Shermett, his congregation or their beliefs. My point was that Steve Shermett's summation reflected his doctrinal position that is by nature, anti-Torah observant. He believes that you shouldn't even try to observe Torah. He stated plainly as a summary statement of this study, "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to!"
Is this what you heard at the MJAA conference; don't even bother to try to keep Torah? Because I consider this type of sentiment anti-Torah rhetoric. Am I wrong?
This started out for me, weeks ago, trying to make one simple point. That those that have never considered Torah observance might not be well equipped to recognize anti-Torah rhetoric. If this is the case, then it would cause well-meaning Moderators to come down on the wrong side in this issue, as several other members have already stated. This is the concern that I posted numerous times. It was never even acknowledged, much less addressed. Why? And why am I the bad guy for bringing it up?
Your OP states:
Does this mean that we are not to suggest the topic of perception in regard to this dispute? I thought it was relevant because I thought we were looking for resolution to disputes.
Tish, I have heard this complaint from a number of members. I know that you have read some of them here in this thread. These are from the same members that say they are afraid to report violations for fear of repercussions from Moderators that don't understand the issue. If you will recall, a number of them recounted bad experiences because of this very thing. I think that this is an important issue, don't you?
I am sorry if you think I am trying to start problems. Really I'm not. And I apologize to everyone that I may have offended. My frustration at having this one issue repeatedly ignored has led me to present it in more and more dramatic ways. But if you feel that this issue isn't worth your time - again, then fine. Sorry for being so much trouble.
That's a long thread do you have specific links?I can tell you for a fact that I have experienced that here Sister Tishri.
Since you're looking, start here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7625317/
There's a wealth of example in this thread.
No it's a required icon we provided a few years ago, it lets staff know if these members are posting in the CO areas, MJ isn't in one of these areasExcuse me, but the flying of a non-Trinitarian icon in and of itself is a statement against the Trinity.
Come to the MSC with your request and we can send a team over there tooDear Tishri,
...could the mods take a specific interest in the harmony of, well, the Advice board? Why does this board get special care over the battlefield that is Advice, just for example.
Love,
zeener
Do I understand you to be a moderator? Of this forum? This posting is that of a troll, not a responsible leader.Yes, a public confession followed by a first rate stoning!
Just move over a bit Brother, I'm too close to the edge...
Who posted the video to this thread? Just for clarification, it wasn't the guy you said it was. http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
And for a little more clarification, some Messianic Jews believe that the Law is no longer obligatory for believers. Do you know why Shermett said "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to."?? Because that is what Scripture states "There is no one righteous, not even one! No one understands, no one seeks God, all have turned away and at the same time become useless; there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one. Their throats are open graves, they use their tongues to deceive. Vipers' venom is under their lips. Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness. Their feet rush to shed blood, in their ways are ruin and misery, and the way of shalom they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment. For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are." Also, the fact is that since the Temple is gone, no one can keep the Torah even if they wanted to. And oh, there's that offensive word right smack dab in the Complete Jewish Bible! Go figure!
I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with that video but I knew it wouldn't be staying due to the haphazard manner in which it was stuck up there. It was tested for whatever reason. Now it's gone bye, bye to video heaven!
I'm starting to feel like a lab rat in a maze and the cheese keeps moving.
Like I already said I go to one of the larges MJ synagogues, and we don't differentiate between mosaic law and Torah. it's all Torah to us and everyone has some sort of relationship to Torah in their lives. It is what makes MJ special. Torah and tradition are intertwined as well, there is not much separating the two ...when we talk Torah we also are involved in tradition
The quote below doesn't fit in with an MJ thread because it's basically saying the opposite of what MJs believe, they don't believe the Torah is no longer obligatory, they don't believe they cannot observe , like I said before there are just as many scriptures on Torah obedience as their are on grace, a post like this doesn't belong in a forum like this as it flames the whole group, telling them in a very negative way why what they are doing is wrong to do.....there has to be a change in the style of your replies in here for this to work
That's a long thread do you have specific links?
Unsubscribing. If want this level of hassle I'll call a church meeting!
Will the last person standing remember to switch off the lights and bolt the door when they leave.
Jerushabelle said:Who posted the video to this thread? Just for clarification, it wasn't the guy you said it was. http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
That was me who posted the video. I said in the post to take the positive from it. This would be like me posting Wesley or the Westminster confession pertaining to the Law of God as an example to help prove a truth. Or a commentary by Matthew Henry or Adam Clarke. Doesn't mean I agree with them that the ceremonial and civil laws are abolished in the same way I said look at the positive from the video.
Was there any positive from the video in relation to the discussion whether or not he is right or wrong about we can't keep the Law of Moses anymore?
It's almost by default to dismiss anything Christian among our some Messianic brothers and sisters and this can apply to the video and especially 'the moral of the story' from the video whether it came from a Christian, a Messianic believer who believes the law of Moses is obsolete etc, etc.
Again you are demanding that others within MJ who may have differing views from yours be banned from posting here? What if you were on the other end of your argument?
The video was not posted to be anti-Torah, it was posted to prove the differing positions held by MJ Congregations. We can not pretend that all are of one mind else we exclude many.
What you accuse myself and others of is ignorance, I do not believe this to be proper, fair or true. I do not see this behavior fitting of a brother in the faith....
Also remember, this is a report free thread.
What am I to "MODERATE"? Perhaps you mean "CENSOR"?
It is actually quite difficult for me to post at all with the netbook I was using, so quoting was a bit out of the question, as it has a tendency to randomly erase and insert words where I am trying to type. I was rather surprised the post came out at all in one piece.Interesting and noted, except you should have also quoted the loving post this was in response to... to be fair.
Yes, a public confession followed by a first rate stoning!
Just move over a bit Brother, I'm too close to the edge...
I publicly apologize for any harshness in my response.
Especially in light of the fine and loving posts to which I am responding, how could I hold any degree of harshness...
Can you explain the need for the demands in response to a request for respect of all on this forum?
Don't you just wonder how those who have been falsly accused, attacked and chased away from this forum feel...
Again I ask you - why have we not seen you post here in the past and yet now you're taking ownership for it?
Are you being honest here or is this another snarky response? I just don't understand your approach to this dialog.
Oh, it's certainly not unseen. Certainly not. We just know others and either have attempted to address it multiple times in various ways, and likely may have already taken a "hands off" approach because nothing else is working.I'm "venomous" yet the hostility of others is unseen.
I have a fair level of training, and from many differing schools. I will stand by my statement. If it is not in the SoF it does not exist, if we are honest with our SoF. Now do some teach that which is outside sound doctrine? I'm sure they do, I just don't personally know of it. If it be, why judge all within that group?
Sometimes it better to give grace before we judge what someone else believes.
The main point of this thread is how to accommodate all MJ's in a single forum.
...my question is what do you want? And what would be fair?
Should folks who do not observe Torah to the degree you do have to leave this place? Even if they attend MJ congregations?
Or allow them to stay but give them funny names that they will have to wear so we know they are the ones not observing Torah to the same level?
Or can we simply ask for respect to those who do observe Torah and not teach, or debate against its observance in this place?
This question is for everyone
Don't you think that telling Messianic Jews, who grew up in a Torah based belief, to not teach Torah, or to not tell about their childhood, or their Jewish upbringing is a form of belittling our Jewish education and upbringing.
Messianic Judaism was and is a Jewish expression of our belief in Yeshua. It was where Jewish people could be Jewish without fear. Somehow, it seems entirely wrong to silence Messianic Jews on a forum titled Messianic Judaism.
I mean are people wanting to be orthodox Messianic Judaism?
Exactly, so we have to find out our healthy balance.I don't want to sidetrack this into a law vrs no law tangent, but traditions and customs are not law. Everyone no matter who they are understands the 10 commandments (give or take one or two) to be basic social behaviour. That's what most consider law. And yes the Ultra Orthodox and some Orthodox are very serious about Jews keeping Torah and if you don't "shame on you". However, lots of Jews have no problem eating pork and doing commerce on Shabbat.
Unless a Jewish person is brought up secular, they do have religious training. And living in a Jewish household, they are exposed to Jewish law.
Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law because it is not a focus. I don't know of a Jewish person who has not celebrated Passover. That we already know and experienced Passover, and continue to celebrate Passover, as almost all Jews, does not make Messianic Judaism about the law. It makes Messianic Judaism, Jewish. To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish.
Jewish people live in a different culture. The Jewish culture.
that's because they are not necessarily mainstream denominations, but there are parts of Christianity who do hold those opinions mentioned, and who do take the idea of grace too far in the opposite direction from the Talmud.
nontheless, in this forum the Talmud is and should rightly be held in a place of honor. that is not the question.
the question (from what i can tell) is the degree of the practice of their beliefs that MJ's engage in, or the degree to which the Torah is important in their lives. And that again is an individual choice for everyone, and not something that can be mandated as part of being an MJ.
what could be stated in the SOF though is the belief that MJ's here should actively desire to follow Torah in their lives. That would put the emphasis on the importance of Torah, and yet still leave the following as a personal responsibility done within the limits of the member's understanding and ability, G_d helping them.
what do you think? would that encompass the beliefs and practices of both sides?
I don't see the AMC as being anti-Torah and when certain individuals here led Brother Sacerdote down the rosy path to that conclusion in another thread, I thought it grossly unfair to the AMC.
Unsubscribing. If want this level of hassle I'll call a church meeting!
Will the last person standing remember to switch off the lights and bolt the door when they leave.
At this point, I have to agree Brother. Unsubscribing as well.
...We need everyone to respect each other and approach arguments POSITIVELY. IF we keep addressing posts in the negative, we're just going to see more and more fur fly.
We need clear rules so we can work together. Until those rules and protections are in place, no one will feel completely at ease opening up their hearts again, when they've been stomped all over with spiked shoes.
There will be different views and opinions depending on the level of one's orthodoxy as to how they feel and interact with other Orthodox Jews, with Conservative, Conservadox, Reform, Reconstructionist and any other flavor there can possibly be of other Jews.
So we have to find out our healthy balance.
Alright Brother Avodat and Sister Jerushabelle, if you don't want to work together with the rest of us then I agree wholeheartedly with your decision to unsubscribe.
But let's make it one or the other please. You have a lot to contribute but if you're fighting the process it doesn't help.
We're trying to do something good here - positive - proactive - helpful. We haven't reached our goals yet but working together we well. And of course that is a better MJ Forum and improved human relations within it. Thank you.
Shalom
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