Staff and Member discussion thread.

Yahudim · Mar 20, 2012

Tishri1 said:
I removed the video as its already been smeared to the point that no one now can enjoy it for what the author intended it for

So now I have smeared the video? :o Please forgive me if I gave you that impression. I was trying to offer an objective response.

I know that the presentation you heard at the MJAA was a positive one. I don't question that. I trust you. I wish that you would trust me too, at least a little.

Not being there with you, I did not see the presentation that you did. But I downloaded the video that was posted by THE TEMPLAR on this thread. I went to the websites. I downloaded the Powerpoint presentation, the spreadsheet and all of the related material. The study itself is quite interesting. I do have some issues with it, but it is very informative if a bit skewed to the AMC side of things.

What I saw in the video was perhaps a little different that the conference presentation you attended. Did you actually watch this video all the way through? After all, the MJAA conference you attended probably addresses a pretty wide audience. However, Rabbi Steve Shermett was commenting directly to his congregation, an AMC congregation that subscribes to the core belief that, "the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers".

My point isn't to criticize Steve Shermett, his congregation or their beliefs. My point was that Steve Shermett's summation reflected his doctrinal position that is by nature, anti-Torah observant. He believes that you shouldn't even try to observe Torah. He stated plainly as a summary statement of this study, "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to!"

Is this what you heard at the MJAA conference; don't even bother to try to keep Torah? Because I consider this type of sentiment anti-Torah rhetoric. Am I wrong?

This started out for me, weeks ago, trying to make one simple point. That those that have never considered Torah observance might not be well equipped to recognize anti-Torah rhetoric. If this is the case, then it would cause well-meaning Moderators to come down on the wrong side in this issue, as several other members have already stated. This is the concern that I posted numerous times. It was never even acknowledged, much less addressed. Why? And why am I the bad guy for bringing it up?

Your OP states:

Tishri1 said:
Hi,

This is a report free thread.

We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.

This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.

And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.

Thoughts?

Does this mean that we are not to suggest the topic of perception in regard to this dispute? I thought it was relevant because I thought we were looking for resolution to disputes.

Tish, I have heard this complaint from a number of members. I know that you have read some of them here in this thread. These are from the same members that say they are afraid to report violations for fear of repercussions from Moderators that don't understand the issue. If you will recall, a number of them recounted bad experiences because of this very thing. I think that this is an important issue, don't you?

I am sorry if you think I am trying to start problems. Really I'm not. And I apologize to everyone that I may have offended. My frustration at having this one issue repeatedly ignored has led me to present it in more and more dramatic ways. But if you feel that this issue isn't worth your time - again, then fine. Sorry for being so much trouble.

Jerushabelle · Mar 20, 2012

Tishri1 said:
Apart from the name calling,which staff is in agreement that this is wrong, where have others here said folks are wrong,or immature for holding less of an observance or no observance to Torah? I've been looking for posts like that.?

I can tell you for a fact that I have experienced that here Sister Tishri.

Since you're looking, start here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7625317/
There's a wealth of example in this thread.

Tishri1 · Mar 20, 2012

[If you all become familiar with the cf rules you will be able to see when mods come in what they are looking for....if the cf rules are not being violated then it could still be the sop is being violated and the mods may not be aware of that as much, help them out and explain why you are reporting the post especially quoting the sop to them and that will help

anisavta said:
This is addressed to our admin staff working on this - er - situation. I'm curious as to the criteria for mod intervention. And I know you can't devulge trade secrets. There are times when I feel a thread is going well. Yes there is debate and even a few desk poundings going on, but it's been true to topic and then bam the next post is a MOD HAT saying it needs cleaning up or closed. But another thread is full of derails, discention, outsiders (and insiders) bullying and backbiting. It's a fist fight. And the PMs start flying in frustration by the regulars as to what recourse we have to remove or curtail the offending posters, and yet the thread will go on page after page with no mod intervention. I think this is what happened to break open this Pandora's box.
IMO we need a few good mods in our corner who understand how a Jewish debate goes and who knows the difference between good entertaining Jewish "discussion" and underhanded derail.

Jerushabelle · Mar 20, 2012

Tishri1 said:
It's not that simple, the posts in the forum cannot teach or debate against the beliefs of that congregation either so there you have your safe haven too.

Those who are Hebrew Christian may be able to post in fellowship but cannot teach against Torah, or those who are non trinitarian can post and teach Torah just not against the Trinity(those are just two examples)

Excuse me, but the flying of a non-Trinitarian icon in and of itself is a statement against the Trinity.

znr · Mar 21, 2012

Dear Tishri,

...could the mods take a specific interest in the harmony of, well, the Advice board? Why does this board get special care over the battlefield that is Advice, just for example.

Love,

zeener

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

Like I already said I go to one of the larges MJ synagogues, and we don't differentiate between mosaic law and Torah. it's all Torah to us and everyone has some sort of relationship to Torah in their lives. It is what makes MJ special. Torah and tradition are intertwined as well, there is not much separating the two ...when we talk Torah we also are involved in tradition

Qnts2 said:
Actually the sop says:

Anti Torah campaigns-While MJs believe they are saved by grace and faith in Yeshua Messiah, they honor and respect the Torah given by Moses. No campaigning against the Torah

No Messianic Jew is anti-Torah. The majority of Messianic Jews are going to be opposed to One Law teaching. If you mean 'Torah obedience' or One Law or observing the Mosaic law, maybe rephrase the sop. Just saying anti-Torah means something different to many Messianic Jews. Also most Messianic Jews are not as you call 'Torah observant'.

On the other hand, Messianic Jews do discuss to some extent, the Mosaic law, what is to be done in light of the Messiah. This is especially true when there is a new Jewish believers. We do present a range of opinions.
That is typical of Jewish style teaching. In many Jewish homes, education in the home comes in the form of debate where the parent brings up a topic and the child chooses an opinion, and the parent chooses an alternate stance, and the debate begins as a part of learning.

Now, from my experience, Gentiles often do not understand the debate style of learning but that was one of the wonderful things about Messianic Judaism. Jewish people, even Messianic Jewish people did and we could debate in Messianic Judaism. In a room full of Messianic Jews with diverse opinions, we do debate and argue and then we all go out for a nosh afterwards.

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

It wasn't the speakers original teaching but the power point he was using to teach off of that Ani and I saw so I guess it was Doug Friedman? The original author of the power point......his teaching was very powerful against judging the Torah obedient believers....Ani wrote the web addy down lets ask her....I'm sure it's the same source

Lulav said:
I think that there is some confusion here. Tish, you are speaking of what video? You were in the 'original audience' to see what? You say it was at an MJAA conference? Then you are not speaking of the same thing Tal and I have been.

we are speaking of the 'must see' video you stickied to the front of this forum.

Here is your post, follow the link

Torah observance MJ style
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
Must see video on Torah Observance

This video is by Steve Shermett of Congregation Beth Sar Shalom shares data from Doug Friedman and the Association of Messianic Congregations. Not associated with MJAA

Tal and I have been speaking about this video. This Association is AGAINST Torah observance. Tal posted what they believe and it is against our SOP.

I'm not sure what vid you are speaking of but I think we need to be all speaking about the same one before we judge a post and what it is saying.

I know this thread is hard to follow, and you have tons of things to do, but look at the link you posted, that is the Video in question.

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

This is true again it's a negative post about someone's Torah observance

anisavta said:
You do the Messianic Gentiles a great disservice by your comment. In our Torah study we have had some great debate by our Gentile members. They know how to do it.
Again to classify the Gentile Messianic believers as, "One Law" is disrespectful. It is labeling them with a label they have not chosen. IMO the term "One Law" should be reserved for the GT forum - not here.

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

mpossoff said:
The conclusion of the matter was?

The conclusion was don't make a huge deal about Torah Observant people as their is only 1% difference between them and the rest of MJ and I think there was less than 10% difference between the average MJ and the rest of the church too...need to go back and look but I'm close I know

It was a call to repent really for judging them

Jerushabelle · Mar 21, 2012

Tishri1 said:
As far as that video, Ani and I were in class with the author of that info(the original guy)and both of us could see the teaching as a way to unite MJs not divide them, your new info puts a spin on the info not intended for his original audience, that is for sure......my question is what do you want? And what would be fair?

I don't see the AMC as being anti-Torah and when certain individuals here led Brother Sacerdote down the rosy path to that conclusion in another thread, I thought it grossly unfair to the AMC.

Tishri1 said:
Should folks who do not observe Torah to the degree you do have to leave this place? Even if they attend MJ congregations?

That has been the message delivered here in the past. With the removal of that video, it appears that will continue.

Tishri1 said:
Or allow them to stay but give them funny names that they will have to wear so we know they are the ones not observing Torah to the same level?

Oh hey, I've already been christened with lots of funny names here.

Tishri1 said:
Or can we simply ask for respect to those who do observe Torah and not teach, or debate against its observance in this place?

I did ask Sister and got told by a Mod Trainee that I needed to be prayed for for asking. The problem is that when one who is less observant posts from that less observant perspective, that one is reported for being anti-Torah. A less observant perspective is not anti-Torah.

Tishri1 said:
This question is for everyone

I posted a possible solution.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-50/#post60070698

Jerushabelle · Mar 21, 2012

Tishri1 said:
I love this solution!

Well, not everyone is schooled in psychology speak.
Additionally, some people don't subscribe to handling their children in that manner. It doesn't always work well and it certainly wouldn't work well for adults who won't be psychologically "handled". That's most everyone on this forum Sister.

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

That's a long list of demands there, and what is the magic word?

We might consider this one for Hebrew Christians, http://www.jesusboat.com/inspirational-pendants/messianic-pendant/sterling-silver-messianic-star

We cannot give up the non Trinitarian one
There are places on the site that restrict non trinitarian postings, so that one is needed still

Jerushabelle said:
Really?... then what is wrong with putting up the seal of Jerusalem as the Messianic icon? It is what is universally accepted as representative of Messianic Judaism.

And instead of just saying no anti-Torah remarks since that can clearly be twisted into the perspective that there is only one level of Torah observance along with mandatory Torah compliance implication ie. post #327, say something along the lines of all Messianics know that Torah (the Mosaic Law) has importance in the expression of the faith and that not all Messianics look to Torah (the Mosaic Law) identically. Some comply with Torah (the Mosaic Law) strictly while others do not while all understand that Torah is guidance from God that is to be upheld. Remarks implying that Torah has been done away with will not be tolerated. Dissing anyone's level of Torah observance will not be tolerated.

And can we get rid of the Non-trinitarian Messianic icon? It flies in the face of CF admission rules. If I could not be granted a grafted in icon, so that people would recognize me as a non-Jewish believer, why should someone be able to proclaim that they don't agree with the Trinity? Yes, I understand that some in Messianism and indeed Messianism itself has a slightly different perspective of the Trinity than others in the Body but one universal icon would go a long way to supporting unity. Sister Qnts2 and I agree that Torah is not the whole shebang when it comes to Messianism (and yes, I know that some feel that is anti-Torah) and that is why it would be better to have the universally accepted seal of Jerusalem as the Messianic icon and the wording should be changed in the SoP. If you're wanting to straighten things out, maybe you should start from the ground up and allow all to have a piece of the playing field under a universal banner?

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

anisavta said:
This is a specific thread on how to create a balanced forum. When posters begin their pet doctrines, Law, One Law, Torah keeping etc, it seems to become a free for all. They can either find or start another thread to address their platform and leave this one free for the OP subject.

Great reminder

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

Qnts2 said:
I have seen the sentiment expressed that a person will eventually be led by the Spirit/Ruach to being observant, and others simply have to pray and be 'patient' until the person is led to where everyone else has already reached.

In short form, they have to wait until the person is led to what others have already achieved. At the time I wrote that, I had just read a couple of posts which expressed that sentiment.

No one telling them Torah is nailed to the cross?

Or

No one telling them they are not saved unless they follow Torah?

These would be the types I would like to see if any of you have links

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

[There is a real Torah presence and relationship in evey MJ group across this nation, the one component to MJ is its relationship to Torah and Jewish Tradition, that is why it's in our SOP, maybe your congregation doesn't speak of Torah at all but that is not the norm, and in here that is not the norm

Qnts2 said:
Don't you think that telling Messianic Jews, who grew up in a Torah based belief, to not teach Torah, or to not tell about their childhood, or their Jewish upbringing is a form of belittling our Jewish education and upbringing.

Messianic Judaism was and is a Jewish expression of our belief in Yeshua. It was where Jewish people could be Jewish without fear. Somehow, it seems entirely wrong to silence Messianic Jews on a forum titled Messianic Judaism.

From a Jewish perspective, we grew up in Judaism, based on the Torah. Almost all Jewish people have experienced the Mosaic law or had some level of formal Judaism training in the Torah. For those who were Bar Mitzvah, at the age of 13, they are considered sons of the law, meaning we had reached maturity in sufficient knowledge to be fully responsible for keeping the law.

So, Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law.

For people who were raised in Christianity, the law might be what stands out in Messianic Judaism, as a visible difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity, but Messianic Judaism is really not about keeping the law. That is a cultural Jewish aspect about Messianic Judaism. Not the real central belief system, other then Messianic Judaism is culturally Jewish.

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

mpossoff said:
I agree. I think and positive what you said is MJAA. As I said before there are splits because of different doctrine beliefs.

MJAA or not it's in our sop Torah observance and Jewish Tradition is intrical to MJ

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

Agreed even if not raised though they understand it's part of their Jewish Identity

mpossoff said:
I think you're on to something. Most Jews aren't raised in orthodox Judaism, so you have a point. I posted something today that would relate to your comment. Most Jews are raised in something though. All the Jews I know in my congregation weren't raised 'at a level' as orthodox let's say. But what's common for the most part is we were raised in common traditions. As I said before being raised Jewish is ethnic, religious and cultural all wrapped up and doesn't depend on your level of Torah of observance. Even the orthodox aren't 'you got to keep the Law like us and if you don't shame on you'.

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

mpossoff said:
I mean are people wanting to be orthodox Messianic Judaism?

No..... They just don't want folks disrespecting them for being observant in any way.....and they don't want teaching threads on Torah disrupted by anti Torah debate

Tishri1 · Mar 21, 2012

Qnts2 said:
I have participated on enough forums, where the Messianic Jews get into debates (we are having fun), and the Gentile participants get upset at what they think of as harsh, or argumentative. I usually have to tone down what I would do in a Jewish only board. So, when I say Gentiles are not comfortable with the Jewish style of debate for learning, I am still confident that is a generally true statement. If you are the exception, that might not be true for you.

As far as One Law, do you believe that the Mosaic law applies to Gentiles, one law for Jews and Gentiles?

The following is from Wiki with a couple of modifications:

One Law theology acknowledges the distinction between Ekklesia and Israel in principle, but in practicality believes gentile believers are considered to come under the Mosaic covenant, making observance obligatory. This theology actually has a long line of various sects that have popped in and out of history.

It doesn't matter this forum isn't GT, we don't hash things out in here, it's a discussion forum. And one law name calling is offensive in here as that group has been attacked there fore the name is used mostly in a derogatory fashion now a days......if Gentiles follow Torah it doesn't mean they are one or two Law, it's neither, they are following their hearts is all

We don't have debate sessions in here, treat it like you would oneg, or havarah, not a debate match

Jerushabelle · Mar 21, 2012

talmidim said:
So now I have smeared the video? :o Please forgive me if I gave you that impression. I was trying to offer an objective response.

I know that the presentation you heard at the MJAA was a positive one. I don't question that. I trust you. I wish that you would trust me too, at least a little.

Not being there with you, I did not see the presentation that you did. But I downloaded the video that was posted by THE TEMPLAR on this thread. I went to the websites. I downloaded the Powerpoint presentation, the spreadsheet and all of the related material. The study itself is quite interesting. I do have some issues with it, but it is very informative if a bit skewed to the AMC side of things.

What I saw in the video was perhaps a little different that the conference presentation you attended. Did you actually watch this video all the way through? After all, the MJAA conference you attended probably addresses a pretty wide audience. However, Rabbi Steve Shermett was commenting directly to his congregation, an AMC congregation that subscribes to the core belief that, "the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers".

My point isn't to criticize Steve Shermett, his congregation or their beliefs. My point was that Steve Shermett's summation reflected his doctrinal position that is by nature, anti-Torah observant. He believes that you shouldn't even try to observe Torah. He stated plainly as a summary statement of this study, "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to!"

Is this what you heard at the MJAA conference; don't even bother to try to keep Torah? Because I consider this type of sentiment anti-Torah rhetoric. Am I wrong?

This started out for me, weeks ago, trying to make one simple point. That those that have never considered Torah observance might not be well equipped to recognize anti-Torah rhetoric. If this is the case, then it would cause well-meaning Moderators to come down on the wrong side in this issue, as several other members have already stated. This is the concern that I posted numerous times. It was never even acknowledged, much less addressed. Why? And why am I the bad guy for bringing it up?

Your OP states:

Does this mean that we are not to suggest the topic of perception in regard to this dispute? I thought it was relevant because I thought we were looking for resolution to disputes.

Tish, I have heard this complaint from a number of members. I know that you have read some of them here in this thread. These are from the same members that say they are afraid to report violations for fear of repercussions from Moderators that don't understand the issue. If you will recall, a number of them recounted bad experiences because of this very thing. I think that this is an important issue, don't you?

I am sorry if you think I am trying to start problems. Really I'm not. And I apologize to everyone that I may have offended. My frustration at having this one issue repeatedly ignored has led me to present it in more and more dramatic ways. But if you feel that this issue isn't worth your time - again, then fine. Sorry for being so much trouble.

Who posted the video to this thread? Just for clarification, it wasn't the guy you said it was. http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944

And for a little more clarification, some Messianic Jews believe that the Law is no longer obligatory for believers. Do you know why Shermett said "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to."?? Because that is what Scripture states "There is no one righteous, not even one! No one understands, no one seeks God, all have turned away and at the same time become useless; there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one. Their throats are open graves, they use their tongues to deceive. Vipers' venom is under their lips. Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness. Their feet rush to shed blood, in their ways are ruin and misery, and the way of shalom they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment. For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are." Also, the fact is that since the Temple is gone, no one can keep the Torah even if they wanted to. And oh, there's that offensive word right smack dab in the Complete Jewish Bible! Go figure!

I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with that video but I knew it wouldn't be staying due to the haphazard manner in which it was stuck up there. It was tested for whatever reason. Now it's gone bye, bye to video heaven!

I'm starting to feel like a lab rat in a maze and the cheese keeps moving.

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