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Well that's great Sister, I really mean that, and I appreciate TLC but my level of observance is exactly where it's going to stay (unless God decides to change something) and I'm asking you and others here to just flat accept that. BTW, I am not non-Torah observant. I do observe many aspects of Torah.
OK I admit that I'm a little slow sometimes and I am terrible remembering names (but I'm smart) lol. Who is Henry?
Hi Ani, Hi Steve,
I hope you don't think that I am trying to derail the thread. After all, it isn't about peace at any cost.
The Staff want to understand what is going on so they can fix it. One of the Mods insisted that we watch a video that was basically anti-Torah. He characterized it as 'fact'. The 'Rabbi' Steve in this video, said in his summation, "You can't keep the Law even if you wanted to." Not only do I disagree, the video itself is clearly against the SoP. It is campaigning against Torah observance.
My consistent position has been that the Staff does not recognize anti-Torah propaganda when they see it. Nothing sinister mind you. They are simply not trained in what to look for. So this video, among other things is a great example of the point that I and others have been trying to illustrate - in a way that they might actually see it. I believe that is something they might want to fix if peace is to be established in the Messianic Judaism forum in a fair and impartial manner.
If all it takes to go and subvert a forum is an icon change, CF is hopless.
What if we all did the same thing?
Let me try to clarify..
I was trying to express:
We earned just penalty of eternal death due to our sin
Yeshua, because He was totally sinless was, by His death, able to pay our penalty for us
If we choose to accept His payment on our behalf we owe to Him our obedience to His Torah/Law/Instruction.
Nothing in G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction had died, been buried, expired, been replaced or been done away with. G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction is eternal, as is the penalty for breaking His Torah/Law/Instruction. THAT is why we need an ongoing relationship with Moshiakh and communication with HaShem! Thanks to the Ruakh we are able to be somewhat better at obeying G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction, but no one can keep it flawlessly. That fact does not excuse us from our responsibility to daily make an earnest effort to get better at it and to confess our failures when they happen.
For those who believe G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction are not incumbent on them the above is by no means meant to be judgmental, just a clarification of the beliefs of my Messianic community.
Also, I am only broaching this topic at all as a mod asked a question
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think the way you attack the issue is helpful, it's not helpful to accuse members of slanderous lying and only serves to create an even larger wedge of resentment between groups in here
I'll respect the rules of the forum and not teach here, but i will remember you in prayer tonight.
Bright as a shiny new penny!
Great post, chaver.
Thank you for your explanation of your view. It is one held by most of Christianity, not a thing wrong with it. For the last two thousand years most of the servants of G-d have dearly held this view.
It is not the view of most of MJism
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
Easy G (G²);60062255 said:Got ya. I go with others who also include things such as the Psalms (also referred to as Law as well, both by Christ and others) alongside the Pentateuch..and the Laws given to those who are NT believers as well.
Likewise..
Apocrypha was a bit more extensive as the Middle books, unless I misunderstood you...but that's another issue which can perhaps be debated in another thread. More on the Tanak and the Apocryph as well as the B'rit Hadashah was shared before in another thread (seen here in #410 ). Additionally, if interested, there's actually an excellent book on the issue of how the Hebrew Bible came to be as it was---and how their view of "books" isn't necessarily the same as how we see it today. It's called Scribal culture and the making of the Hebrew Bible" by K. van der Toorn
Easy G (G²);60062186 said:If you've never see it, this is one video that I thought you'd enjoy...by Dan Juster on the subject of MJism and what it is about:
Qnts2 said:Thank you for clarifying.
I agree that we justly earned the penalty of death for our sins, and the Jesus was totally sinless and able to pay the penalty for us.
I also believe that in Adam, we died spiritually. I use the term, prior to belief, we were dead men walking. And at any time, it was well within Gods right to strike us dead, and turn us over to the second death. Being dead in sins, we were in need of life. Yeshua repeatedly said He came to give Life, and that Life eternally. It is not just in the future, but we have received that life now. We became Spiritually alive to Him.
Now, if we continue to be obligated to the Mosaic law, the penalty for sin is death for many of the commands. So, if we violate the Mosaic law, we once again die. If we die, we need a sacrifice for sin, per the Mosaic law. As I take the law, as one unit, for face value, and I do not believe we can remove one jot or tittle, that includes not removing the sacrifice which is part of the one Mosaic covenant. If we sin, and the command says that sin requires a sacrifice, and we fail to follow the Mosaic law to make that required sacrifice, then we have broken another law.
That is why I believe we are not under the Mosaic covenant but under the New Covenant. The sacrifice in the New Covenant is that of Yeshua one time sacrifice for all of our sins. And since we are now new creations, made spiritually alive in Him, we deeply desire to serve Him and be obedient to Him.
And I think that's why some are taking advantage of this thread to continue the theological debate instead of working on a solution. There is no fear of recourse.
Thank you for your explanation of your view. It is one held by most of Christianity, not a thing wrong with it. For the last two thousand years most of the servants of G-d have dearly held this view.
It is not the view of most of MJism
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
Qnts2 said:I would disagree. I know many who would agree with what I said who are Messianic Jews.
There are differences between Christianity and Messianic Judaism, although we do agree with the fundamental basics.
Christianity has communion. Messianic Judaism has Passover.
Christianity has Easter. Messianic Judaism has the first fruits wave offering and then the counting of the Omer.
Christianity has Pentacost. Messianic Judaism has Shavuos.
Messianic Judaism says Messiah, not Christ. (Jewish people have been abused in the name of Christ, so the word Christ does not have good connotations). The Jewish people know we are promised the Messiah so Messiah is a Jewish word with a Jewish understanding.
And these are just a few of the differences. There are a lot more. From a Tenakh to NT view, things look different then a NT to OT view.
Love your new picture.
Yes, I get what you mean but maybe this is needed to get some things out that have been hidden. I see two sides here and my suggestion is that we have two forums.
1. Mainstream Messianic Judaism for Jews that believe in Yeshua as Messiah and Gentiles who have a Orpah Calling.
2. Messianic Remnant- Followers of first century Judaism as defined by Yeshua for Jewish believers and Gentiles with a Ruth calling.
then i have only one question:
will you be content to be divided by your differences, or will you strive to stand together, united by what you hold in common?
and perhaps one observation........this life we live has been said to be practice for our life in eternity. So how is your practice comming along?
Wow Tish,
You really don't get it. You view that as mudslinging? Really? Against who? Did you really read what I wrote?
I watched the video. I found the on-line study. I did some research. What I found was error. What I saw was bait and switch. I watched the video that everyone oohed and aahed over, praising it for minimizing the responsibilities of the Torah observant to that of irrelevant; 'like fighting over a penny'. It was a smear.
What they didn't tell you is that all they teach is mainstream Christian doctrine with some Hebraic window dressing, not that Hebrew roots is wrong. Its just that the whole presentation was both misleading and erroneous on the most basic level. It teaches that even if you are 'Torah Positive' as they called it, you may as well quit because it doesn't matter. Torah isn't for the New Testament believer. That message is against our SoP in case you missed it. And I was outraged! That video should have never been allowed in this faith group's forum - AND THE STAFF ALL MISSED IT! One of the Mods was even demanding that we watch it. Well I did.
They may as well have said, 'It just like fighting over an inch of dirt', knowing full well that stepping back that inch puts you over the precipice.
That wasn't mudslinging Deb, it wasn't personal. That was Theatre of the Absurd and an appropriate response to that hogwash:"We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life..." The makers of the study and the video, post this on their website and paraphrase it in this video.
And you didn't see it?
Hi Pat,
As an observer from the outside would you mind explaining to me what one is being saved from? What is the Messianic perspective of salvation, or would it be the same as the view of salvation within mainstream Christianity?
Thank you
the majority of Messianic Jews will disagree. Not about the marriage vow but your statement that Torah observance is mandatory after salvation.
What do you think happens to those who do not keep the law?
And now that video has it's own thread and own Sticky too
19th March 2012, 12:48 PM
Torah observance MJ style
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
Must see video on Torah Observance
http://v10.lscache1.googlevideo.com/...70D2C5&key=ck1
I guess this is what we have to agree to, like it or not?
I'm done here.
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