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St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

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Standing Up

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Standing Up said:
Like I said, let's use EO scripture. Now can you practice SS? If not, why not?


Given your "no inerrant translation of Scripture", you're hard pressed to continue quoting Scripture like 1 Tim. 3:15 as your standard.

So, let's agree to use EO Scripture and EO as the source of authority to interpret it. Now you can agree with SS. If not, why not?
 
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sculleywr

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Objection. Asked and answered.

Objection sustained. Move on with the questioning, counselor.
 
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sculleywr

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The ability to respond intelligently is greatly reduced when we give others authority over our thought process.
So if God tells you to not believe something, I guess your intelligence is reduced by obeying Him.

Accepting the Apostolic Tradition is not giving others authority over thought process. It's understanding that there are guardrails there for a reason. The Tradition of the Church are guardrails keeping us from falling into the acid bath of heresy.
 
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Rick Otto

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If God tells me something, it is qualitatively different than you telling me what He's telling me.
I'll let you know if I need your help, thanks.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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I put baptist because I go to a baptist church. It doesn't mean I agree with everything baptist. I am no hardliner of denominations. Thats silly. Synergism.. thats the whole cooperation of our free will and divine will right? Its been awhile since I delved that deep in theology. DIdn't the EO chruch decide that iconology was bad for awhile, and then decide it was ok again? Well, how am I supposed to agree with something the EO can't firmly decide on? How long until they change their mind again?
 
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Standing Up

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The ability to respond intelligently is greatly reduced when we give others authority over our thought process.
True enough. I've agreed with both RC and EO now that we could use their scripture and use their authority. Can they be SS? No. Why? They've yet to come up with more straw to build their straw men.
 
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sculleywr

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If God tells me something, it is qualitatively different than you telling me what He's telling me.
I'll let you know if I need your help, thanks.
It's also the claim made by every person who leads a denominational split, the claim made by Martin Luther and Calvin, and both went in very different directions. Was the Spirit truly revealing their beliefs to them? And if so, when do we get to come to the diagnosis that God is schizophrenic?
 
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sculleywr

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No, we never agreed that IconoGRAPHY was bad. We don't study Icons. We write them (Graphia means "to write"). The opinion was forced by robber councils with puppets set up. In order for it to be the opinion of the Church, it must be accepted by the Church. This is why the Seventh Council is called Ecumenical, while the robber councils are not. This is also why the Eighth Ecumenical Council, which anathematized filioquism, is accepted in the East, but not the west, despite the fact that the Pope himself, alongside his legates, voted for the anathematization.

Your accusation of change is about as strong as rotten wood. It holds nothing up.

As to synergism, it is the belief that salvation is the result of an active relationship with God. It is not the idea that we can work for salvation, as many Protestants (especially Baptists) claim. It is the belief that the faith through which we are saved must be a living faith. It is not works of the law that enliven faith. In fact, the works themselves have nothing to do with the enlivening of Faith. It is the love in the works which enliven the faith, opening the door through which Grace enters our hearts. Through this, we proceed through the Christian life to Theosis, which is the unification of our will with the divine will, through which we gain knowledge of God, which is how we obtain eternal life.
 
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Rick Otto

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It is also the claim that the Eastern Orthodox handed the RCC when the RCC tried to pull the authority card on them.

A tad ironic.

Never mind Protestants, the EO and the RCC establish "God's"* schizophrenia.


* (man's)
 
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fhansen

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Thank you. Do you think that the fact that the Apochrypha tends to lend support for some controversial Catholic-as well as EO- teachings contributed to the rejection by the Reformers?
 
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Fireinfolding

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It is also the claim that the Eastern Orthodox handed the RCC when the RCC tried to pull the authority card on them.

A tad ironic.

Never mind Protestants, the EO and the RCC establish "God's"* schizophrenia.


* (man's)

 
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sculleywr

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It is also the claim that the Eastern Orthodox handed the RCC when the RCC tried to pull the authority card on them.

A tad ironic.

Never mind Protestants, the EO and the RCC establish "God's"* schizophrenia.


* (man's)
No. Every Protestant denomination can claim the Spirit's guidance according to their doctrines. And they do. And they claim that each church is equally Christian. Orthodox and RCC do not claim that the others are equally Christian. That is the major difference between Protestantism and Traditional Christianity. Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches do not recognize each other as being fully Christian. We each believe our own Church to be the fullness of the Faith. We recognize the need for unity, but unlike the Protestants, we do not fool ourselves into believing that unity is there.

You see, that major difference makes your argument self-defeating. On an individual level, we believe a Roman Catholic or Protestant can be saved. But on the Ecclesiastical level, only one Church can be the Apostolic Church. Only one Church can be truly built on the Faith which was given once for ALL the Saints. And with that one verse, we can eliminate ANY church that believes that dogma can develop over time. If the Faith was given once for all the Saints, then innovation is impossible, dogmatic development is impossible, for the Church which follows the Apostles.

However, with the five solas, innovation and dogmatic development are not only possible, but inevitable. Any person can create his own church built on whatever dogmas he wishes. He could preach that Jesus is a literal multi-faced Ram based on the book of Revelation, and because he claims to be led by the Spirit, he is perfectly legitimized in his claim to be leading a real church. This is why, in all reality, the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are legitimately Protestant denominations, despite the Protestant denial of their inclusion. They claim, just like every Protestant, to be following the Scripture as based on the canon they recognize. Without Tradition, Protestants were powerless to condemn the heretical groups.

On the other hand, the same heresies, when they cropped up before the Reformation, were responded to as quickly as the Church was capable. And they failed to have any real lasting effect on the life of the Church.

So yes, if every Protestant denomination has equal claim to the Truth, then God is schizophrenic.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Bingo.... and Christ cannot be divided....no schizophenia involved when it come to the true invisable church
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Here are a couple more for you:

And here (with popup Bible texts) is a partial list of references to Divine written revelation being written (Scripture) and references to it, substantiating the claim that as they were written, the written word became the standard for obedience and in establishing truth claims. In full, the New Testament is stated to have approximately 250 express Old Testament quotations and more than 1,000 if one includes indirect or partial quotations, while another counts 275 direct quotes and at least 600 allusions to the Old (view many of both here. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary reports "the fourth edition of the United Bible Societies' Greek Testament (1993) lists 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2, 309 allusions and verbal parallels. (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dict...y/the-old-testament-in-the-new-testament.html) Many of which tabulations may count those in duplicate accounts. The following list does not include all of the quotations and rarely includes simple allusions to Scripture (versus clear references such as to the law), but supplies a multiplicity of viewable (place mouse over reference, and if you cannot see them use a different browser, like Firefox) references to what was written or quotes thereof, including internal references within each Testament to Scripture (not just the New referencing the Old): Ex. 17:14; 24:4,7,12; 31:18; 32:15; 34:1,27; 35:29; Lv. 8:36; 10:10,11; 26:46; Num. 4:5,37,45,49; 9:23; 10:13; 15:23; 16:40; 27:23; 33:2; 36:13; Dt. 4:13; 5:22; 9:10; 10:2,4; 17:18,19; 27:3,8; 28:58,61; 29:20,21,27; 30:10; 31:9,11,19,22,26; 33:4; Josh. 1:7,8; 8:31,32,34,35; 10:13; 14:2; 20:2; 21:2; 22:5,9; 23:6; 24:26; Jdg. 3:4; 1Sam. 10:25; 2Sam. 1:8; 1Ki. 2:3; 8:53,56; 12:22; 2Ki. 1:8; 14:6; 17:37; 22:8,10,13,16; 23:2,21; 1Ch. 16:40; 17:3,9; 2Ch. 23:18; 25:4; 31:3; 33:8; 34:13-16,18,19,21,24; 34:30; 35:6,12; Ezra 3:2,4; 6:18; Neh. 6:6; 8:1,3,8,15,18; 9:3,14; 10:34,36; 13:1; Psa. 40:7; Is. 8:20; 30:8; 34:16; 65:6; Jer. 17:1; 25:13; 30:2; 36:2,6,10,18,27,28; 51:60; Dan. 9:11,13; Hab. 2:2;
Mat. 1:22; 2:5,15,17,18; 3:3; 4:4,6,7,10,14,15; 5:17,18,33,38,43; 8:4,17; 9:13; 11:10; 12:3,5,17-21,40,41; 13:14,15,35; 14:3,4,7-9;19:4,5,17-19; 21:4,5,13,16,42; 22:24,29,31,32,37,39,43,44; 23:35;24:15; 26:24,31,54,56; 27:9,10,35; Mark 1:2,44; 7:3,10; 9:12,13; 10:4,5; 11:17; 12:10,19,24,26 13:14; 14:21,47,49; 15:28; Lk. 2:22,23.24; 3:4,5,6; 4:4,6-8,10,12,16,17,18,20,25-27; 5:14; 7:27; 8:10; 10:26,27; 16:29,31; 18:20,31; 19:46; 20:17,18, 28,37,42,43; 22:37; 23:30; 24:25.27,32,44,45,46; Jn. 1:45; 2:17,22; 3:14; 5:39,45-47; 6:31,45; 7:19,22,23,38,42,51,52; 8:5,17; 9:26; 10:34,35; 12:14,15,38-41; 15:25; 17:12; 19:24,28,36,37; 20:9,31; 21:24; Acts 1:20; 2:16-21,25-28,34,35; 3:22,23,25; 4:11,25,26; 7:3,7,27,28,32,33,37,40,42,43,49,50,53; 8:28,30,32,33; 10:43;13:15,27,29,33,39; 15:5,15-17,21; 17:2,11; 18:13.24,28; 21:20,24; 22:12; 23:3,5; 24:14; 26:22; 28:23,26,27; Rom 1:2,17; 2:10-21,31; 4:3,7,17,18,23,24; 5:13; 7:1-3,7,12,14,16; 8:4,36; 9:4,9,12,13,15,17,25-29,33; 10:11,15,19; 11:2-4,8,9,26,27; 12:19,20; 13:8-10; 14:11; 15:3,4,9-12,21; 16:16,26,27; 1Cor. 1:19,31; 2:9; 3:19,20; 4:6; 6:16; 7:39; 9:9,10; 10:7,11,26,28; 14:21,34; 15:3,4,32,45,54,55; 2Cor. 1:13; 2:3,4; 3:7,15; 4:13; 6:2;16; 7:12; 8:15; 9:9; 10:17; 13:1; Gal. 3:6,8,10-13; 4:22,27,30; 5:14; Eph. 3:3,4; (cf. 2Pt. 3:16); Eph. 4:8; 5:31; 6:2,3; (cf. Dt. 5:16); Col. 4:16; 1Thes. 5:27; 1Tim. 5:18; 2Tim. 3:14,16,17; Heb. 1:5,7-13; 2:5-8,12,13; 3:7-11,15; 4:3,4,7; 5:5,6; 6:14; 7:17,21,28; 8:5,8-13; 9:20; 10:5-916,17,28,30,37; 11:18; 12:5,6,12,26,29; 13:5,6,22; James 2:8,23; 4:5; 1Pet. 1:16,24,25; 2:6,7,22; 3:10-12; 5:5,12; 2Pet. 1:20,21; 2:22; 3:1,15,16; 1Jn. 1:4; 2:1,7,8,12,13,21; 5:13; Rev. 1:3,11,19; 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,12,14; 14:13; 19:9; 21:5; 22:6,7;10,18,19 (Note: while the Bible reveals that there is revelation which is not written down, (2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 10:4) yet interestingly, a study of the the phrase “the word of God” or “the word of the Lord” shows that revelation that is referred to as being that normally was subsequently written down. Nor was the oral truth referred to in 2Thes. 2:15 that of nebulous ancient traditions (which can also result in different interpretations, such as the Roman Catholics and EOs example), but what Paul referred to was known instruction by a manifestly Divinely inspired apostle, whose manner was to reason out of the Scriptures, (Acts 17:2) and whose words were examined for veracity by Scripture. (Acts 17:11) And there is no proof that this truth also was not subsequently written down.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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As you have likely been told already, that is not Sola Scriptura, but only example Prima Scripture, while the sufficiency claim is implicit if understood as encompassing formal and material aspects.

First, the fact is that, as is abundantly evidenced, the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes first being spoken, and that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

[Before the written word, God revealed Himself and will in a very limited manner, to a very limited amount of people, and oral tradition was the norm, but when choosing to do so to an entire people more precisely and comprehensively, and preserve this revelation, the Lord used writing, which became the standard.]

And thus the church established its truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, versus the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, which is unseen and unnecessary in Scripture.

And thus the Scripture alone are the supremacy wholly infallible definitive source of and on Truth, to which nothing is equal save God.

And as to the sufficiency claim, this cannot not wholly pertain to its formal (limited) aspect (under which basic things like how to be converted is evident, so that one could read Acts 10:36-43 and believe and be born again) but includes what Scripture materially provides, including such things as reason, the Spirit's guidance, the church, etc.

And Scripture testifies and sanction both men and writings of God being discerned and established as such (without needing an infallible mag.), then in principal this provides for a canon.

In stark contrast, RCs argue that the historical stewards of the word of God and inheritors of its promises are the infallible authority on and over it, and an infallible magisterium is essential to assuredly know what Scripture both consists of and means, and who true men of God are.

Thus under the RC model for determination of Truth, if some itinerant preachers showed up, claiming authority based on Scriptural warrant, and many people saw such as being from God, but whom the historical magisterium over the people of God rejected, then they would have to be rejected.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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No, as SS refers to whatever falls under the class of Scripture. And if even OT Scripture itself was the supreme standard for Truth, then it certainly would be with a fuller canon.

But see above as regards the sufficiency aspect of SS.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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No. Every Protestant denomination can claim the Spirit's guidance according to their doctrines.

And likewise every RC can interpret their supreme standard, the church, and do. Especially since Rome can also formally redefine herself, which results in divisions. As one poster wryly commented,

The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. — Nathan ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html

Moreover, Scripturally what you do constitutes the evidence of what you believe, and Rome interprets herself by treating even proabortion, prosodomite, proMuslim pols as members in life and in death, while those who esteem Scripture the most are far more unified in core beliefs than the overall fruit of Rome.

But aside from that, it seems that the RC argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)\

And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God.

Does this fairly represent what you hold to or in what way does it differ?
 
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Albion

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As you have likely been told already, that is not Sola Scriptura, but only example Prima Scripture
Well, it's NOT Prima Scriptura since there is nothing for it to be "Prima" in comparison to!

Seriously, we have evidence of Scripture being cited as the cause of this or that belief from the first century onward, but where is there any evidence of "Holy Tradition?" There is none.

Yet its devotees claim that Tradition is to be preferred over Scripture and that the Apostles and Church Fathers and the Bible itself all supposedly support Tradition! Where? It's entirely phony. There is none such.

So this fact constitutes support for Scripture in itself.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Thank you. Do you think that the fact that the Apochrypha tends to lend support for some controversial Catholic-as well as EO- teachings contributed to the rejection by the Reformers?

And just how many distinctive Cath. teachings do these specifically actually support, versus what Caths extrapolate out them, which is only limited by what is needed? Purgatory from 2Mac. 12? Even the Orthodox substantially differ with Rome on many things, including her purgatory.

Moreover, if the Apocrypha did so then why was the canonical status doubted and debated down thru the centuries and right into Trent. Which provided the first indisputable RC definition of the Bible - after the death of Luther, approx. 1400 years after the last book was penned?
 
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