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ST. John Calvin

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Benedicta00

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It is becoming clear that you have no proof, or at least no desire to show it.
I have given you "proof" and you got off track, dropped it. Jesus in Matthew indeed said there will be those who will be called great in the kingdom and those who will be called least in the kingdom and those who do not abide in justice, won't be called at all.

And you really had nothing to say about that.

Now please, stop deflecting. Who says I have to? The bible? Where?
 
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mont974x4

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I wasn't asking about polycarp, I really don't care who he was. I was responding to a post about Paul's letter to Timothy.


Look at Scripture, all of it as it relates to any issue in questioon, and not just one or two verses that please us.



What do you is meant by "everything pertaining to life and godliness in the following passage?
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
2Pe 1:3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.


How about "adequate, equipped for every good work"

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.



When we start following what other men teach, especially when so loosely based on Scripture or not based on it at all in some cases, we place ourselves in danger of following false teachings and extrabiblical teachings. This is what the people were doing following the Pharisees and all the added rules. This is one thing Christ freed us from....religion, bondage, works.
 
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mont974x4

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That verse has nothing to do with saints vs Saints as the rcc doctrine teaches or the rcc endowing the title on men and claiming other men as not being saints. The 60 some verses that use the word "saints" do not support the rcc ideal.
 
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Benedicta00

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That verse has nothing to do with saints vs Saints as the rcc doctrine teaches or the rcc endowing the title on men and claiming other men as not being saints. The 60 some verses that use the word "saints" do not support the rcc ideal.
says who?
 
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simonthezealot

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But scripture doesn't say I have too...

So tell me Mr. Mont, who says I have to...
The fathers you call your own!

Jerome
"I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else." - Jerome (Letter 53:10)
Dionysius of Alexandria
"Nor did we evade objections, but we endeavored as far as possible to hold to and confirm the things which lay before us, and if the reason given satisfied us, we were not ashamed to change our opinions and agree with others; but on the contrary, conscientiously and sincerely, and with hearts laid open before God, we accepted whatever was established by the proofs and teachings of the Holy Scriptures." - Dionysius of Alexandria (cited in the church history of Eusebius, 7:24)

Clement of Alexandria
"But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves." - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:16)

Irenaeus
"They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith....(against heresies)
 
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Kristos

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Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
 
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Reformationist

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He was taught by the apostle John, Mont. So John taught him wrongly?

Was John incapable of error? Was Polycarp incapable of error in what he was taught? Was he infallible in relaying what he was taught to others?

I really am getting impatient.. SHOW me please where the bible says every thing must bow down to it??

Michelle, is the Bible the infallible revelation of an infallible God?

This notion you have that everything we believe and practice MUST be found in scripture has no scripture basis itself.

No one is saying that. What we are saying is that the Bible is the final rule of arbitration.
 
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mont974x4

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NASB

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

Deu 8:3 "He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.
 
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Reformationist

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I had a long exchange with Mont really getting into the scripture foundation... you can go back and find it.

I also briefly shared some of the same with you.. you can go look for that too.

In this thread??? :scratch: If so, could you at least give me the page numbers so I don't read the wrong thing and think it is your provision of "biblical support."
 
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Kristos

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St. Augustine of Hippo, in North Africa (+430)

At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.

"In Joann.", tr. lxxxiv, in P. L., XXXIV, 1847.
 
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Kristos

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What are Christians? Christians are Christ-bearers, and by virtue of this bearers and possessors of eternal life, and this according to the measure of faith and according to the measure of holiness which is from faith. The Saints are the most perfect Christians, for they have been sanctified to the highest degree with the podvigs of holy faith in the risen and eternally-living Lord Christ and no death has power over them. Their life is entirely from the Lord Christ, and for this reason it is entirely Christ's life; and their thought is entirely Christ's thought; and their perception is Christ's perception. All that they have is first Christ's and then theirs. If the soul, it is first Christ's and then theirs: if life, it is first Christ's and then theirs. In them is nothing of themselves but rather wholly and in everything the Lord Christ.
Therefore, the Lives of the Saints are nothing else but the life of the Lord Christ, repeated in every saint to a greater or lesser degree in this or that form. More precisely it is the life of the Lord Christ continued through the Saints, the life of the incarnate God the Logos, the God-man Jesus Christ who became man. This was so that as man He could give and transmit to us His divine life; so that as God by His life he could sanctify and make immortal and eternal our human life on earth. "For both he who sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one" (Heb. 2: 11).

Introduction to the Lives of the Saints
by Saint Justin Popovich
 
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mont974x4

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what do these tell us?

(Mat 27:52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
(Act 9:13) But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;
(Act 9:32) Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.
(Act 9:41) And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.
(Act 26:10) "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.
(Rom 1:7) to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Rom 8:27) and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
(Rom 12:13) contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.
(Rom 15:25) but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.
(Rom 15:26) For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.
(Rom 15:31) that I may be rescued from those who are disobedient in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may prove acceptable to the saints;
(Rom 16:2) that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
(Rom 16:15) Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
(1Co 1:2) To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
(1Co 6:1) Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
(1Co 6:2) Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
(1Co 14:33) for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
(1Co 16:1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.
(1Co 16:15) Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints),
(2Co 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:
(2Co 8:4) begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,
(2Co 9:1) For it is superfluous for me to write to you about this ministry to the saints;
(2Co 9:12) For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
(2Co 13:13) All the saints greet you.
(Eph 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 1:15) For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
(Eph 1:18) I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
(Eph 2:19) So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
(Eph 3:8) To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
(Eph 3:18) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
(Eph 4:12) for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
(Eph 5:3) But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
(Eph 6:18) With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
(Php 1:1) Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:
(Php 4:22) All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household.
(Col 1:2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
(Col 1:4) since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;
(Col 1:12) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
(Col 1:26) that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
(1Th 3:13) so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
(2Th 1:10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
(1Ti 5:10) having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.
(Phm 1:5) because I hear of your love and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints;
(Phm 1:7) For I have come to have much joy and comfort in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother.
(Heb 6:10) For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
(Heb 13:24) Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.
(Jud 1:3) Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
(Rev 5:8) When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
(Rev 8:3) Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.
(Rev 8:4) And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.
(Rev 11:18) "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
(Rev 13:7) It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
(Rev 13:10) If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
(Rev 14:12) Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
(Rev 16:6) for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."
(Rev 17:6) And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
(Rev 18:20) "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."
(Rev 18:24) "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."
(Rev 19:8) It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
(Rev 20:9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
 
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simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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St. Augustine of Hippo, in North Africa (+430)

At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.

"In Joann.", tr. lxxxiv, in P. L., XXXIV, 1847.
Hi Kristos, not to doubt you but I don't believe this is Augistines work, what does this mean?...in P. L., XXXIV, 1847

Edited''' I stand corrected here is the actual context.
Chapter XV. 13.
1. The Lord, beloved brethren, hath defined that fullness of love which we ought to bear to one another, when He said: “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” Inasmuch, then, as He had said before, “This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you;” and appended to these words what you have just been hearing, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends;” there follows from this as a consequence, what this same Evangelist John says in his epistle, “That as Christ laid down His life for us, even so we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren;”14161416 1 John iii. 16. loving one another in truth, as He hath loved us, who laid down His life for us. Such also is doubtless the meaning of what we read in the Proverbs of Solomon: “If thou sittest down to supper at 350the table of a ruler, consider wisely what is set before thee; and so put to thy hand, knowing that thou art bound to make similar preparations.”14171417 Prov. xxiii. 1, 2: see below, and also Tract. XLVII. sec. 2, note 4. For what is the table of the ruler, but that from which we take the body and blood of Him who laid down His life for us? And what is it to sit thereat, but to approach in humility? And what is it to consider intelligently what is set before thee, but worthily to reflect on the magnitude of the favor? And what is it, so to put to thy hand, as knowing that thou art bound to make similar preparations, but as I have already said, that, as Christ laid down His life for us, so we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren? For as the Apostle Peter also says, “Christ suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow His steps.”14181418 1 Pet. ii. 21. This is to make similar preparations. This it was that the blessed martyrs did in their burning love; and if we celebrate their memories in no mere empty form, and, in the banquet whereat they themselves were filled to the full, approach the table of the Lord, we must, as they did, be also ourselves making similar preparations. For on these very grounds we do not commemorate them at that table in the same way, as we do others who now rest in peace, as that we should also pray for them, but rather that they should do so for us, that we may cleave to their footsteps; because they have actually attained that fullness of love, than which, our Lord hath told us, there cannot be a greater. For such tokens of love they exhibited for their brethren, as they themselves had equally received at the table of the Lord.
 
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Kristos

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Moreover we accept (aspazometha) the image of the honorable and life-giving Cross, and the holy relics of the saints; and we receive the holy and venerable images; we accept them and we embrace them, according to the ancient traditions of the Holy Catholic Church of God, that is to say our holy Fathers, who also received these things and established them in all the most holy Churches of God and in every place of His dominion. These honorable and venerable images, as has been said, we honor, accept and reverently venerate (timitikosproskynoumen): the image of the incarnation of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, and that of our immaculate Lady, the all-holy Mother of God, from whom he pleased to take flesh and to save and deliver us from all impious idolatry; also the images of the holy and incorporeal Angels, who appeared to the just as men. Likewise we also venerate the figures and the effigies (morphas, eikonismata) of the divine and all-lauded Apostles, the God-speaking Prophets, and the suffering martyrs and holy men, so that through their representations (anazografiseos) we may be able to be led back in memory and recollections to the prototype, and participate in their holiness"
(Nicene and Post–Nicene Fathers , Vol 14, p. 541).
 
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Kristos

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BTW -

The Orthodox Church does not follow any official procedure for the "recognition" of saints. Initially the Church accepted as saints those who had suffered martyrdom for Christ. The saints are saints thanks to the grace of God, and they do not need official ecclesiastical recognition. The Christian people, reading their lives and witnessing their performance of miracles, accept and honor them as saints. St. John Chrysostom, persecuted and exiled by the civil and ecclesiastical authorities, was accepted as a saint of the Church by popular acclaim. St. Basil the Great was accepted immediately after his death as a saint of the Church by the people.
 
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simonthezealot

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St. John Chrysostom, persecuted and exiled by the civil and ecclesiastical authorities, was accepted as a saint of the Church by popular acclaim.
sounds similar to St. Martin, St. Jan and St. John!:clap:
 
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Kristos

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sounds similar to St. Martin, St. Jan and St. John!:clap:
Yeah, so why aren't they called saints by their respective legacies? I've seen many Lutheran churches named for saints - but none St Martin - maybe I'm wrong - please correct me. I've never seen a St John Calvin either... Are they worthy? How about anyone since then? Where are your saints?

P.S. For obvious reasons, I doubt the Orthodox church would ever recognize them, but only God truly makes a saint.
 
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