ST. John Calvin

[Kristos]

Sainthood is about sanctity? Well, since to be sancified implies being set apart and holy, and it is He who does that to all beleivers then all beleivers are saints. It has nothing to do with perfection, approval by a denomination, or the attribution of miracles to the individual.

I agree.

 

[Rick Otto]

... we might well ask ourselves if ... spiritual life is even possible without the testimony of the Lives of the Saints. The answer to this, I believe, must be "no."

"Can I get a witness?"
True, our spiritual life is a witness.
As saints, we testify about God & ourselves.

 

[lionroar0]

First, we are not presumptuous enough to expect anyone to believe Calvin was worthy of honor. You either believe he was, or you don't.

Belive it on what grounds and disbelive it on what grounds? That's the question.

There are many still alive that honor Hitler. You either belive it or you don't.

We don't fall prey to the arrogant notion that a fallible inspection of someone's life justifies awarding them a title that indicates a level of sanctification we have no ability to validate. Secondly, doing so is no more insulting than your denomination presuming that their recognition of someone's holiness means anything more than that they fancy themselves in the place of God.

Maybe we are all wrong about Hitler. Maybe the holocaust is just an invention by the Jews.

Maybe Stalin really wasn't the horrible person many people say that he was. Since we are fallible maybe we were wrong about them.

Maybe we should invite them for tea and crumpets and pat them on them back.

Your argument has no basis on reality.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Sainthood is about sanctity? Well, since to be sancified implies being set apart and holy, and it is He who does that to all beleivers then all beleivers are saints. It has nothing to do with perfection, approval by a denomination, or the attribution of miracles to the individual.

Yes. There are many Saints in heaven that we don't know about.

We honor those that has been revealed to us that they are in heaven with the title of Saint.

That's it. Nothing more.

Peace

 

[mont974x4]

Except that there is no biblical basis for the "S"aint title as opposed to saint, and we all know people do more than just give them the title. Prayers? Feasts?

 

[Benedicta00]

Except that there is no biblical basis for the "S"aint title as opposed to saint, and we all know people do more than just give them the title. Prayers? Feasts?

but I showed you that there is...

 

[mont974x4]

you showed me no such thing

 

[mont974x4]

NASB
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
Col 2:21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
Col 2:22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

 

[Benedicta00]

you showed me no such thing

just as you show me no such thing that condemns it or contradicts it.

All you show me is YOUR arbitrary application of what *you think* or what you have been indoctrinated to think they mean.

On who's authority do you speak? Why is your interpretation of the bible so much more pure than that of the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, century Christians? What makes you think you and the Anabaptist tradition you follow know more then those who walked with the apostles?

The practices of the Catholic Church are the practices of historical ancient Christianity handed down to us from Christ and the 12... the bible is a part of that holy tradition, not exclusively that and that is you're biggest error, thinking the bible is it... and we have proven this, but you ignore and look the other way to a time 1530 years later after the fact when Christianity was literally reinvented.

Tell me what makes you biblical interpretation so much more superior?

 

[Benedicta00]

Sainthood is about sanctity? Well, since to be sancified implies being set apart and holy, and it is He who does that to all beleivers then all beleivers are saints. It has nothing to do with perfection, approval by a denomination, or the attribution of miracles to the individual.

Perfection IS holiness, sanctity and we have all been consecrated, set apart for a holy use and purpose, TO BECOME what Christ redeemed us all to be, children of the most high God, the children we were intended to be in the first place, HOLY and PERFECT.

We are not born this way nor are we "born again" this way. We are born anew redeemed, now that we are, we have entered into a life of God's mercy and grace we walk in that grace literally walk in grace so we can be more than just fallen sinners who wallow in unrighteousness.

We pick up our cross of self denial, which means dying the flesh, how it is and what it wants and we FOLLOW (another action world there) Christ.

Why do we do this? because we love God and God fills us with His love more and more we are obedient to His will in our lives. The more of god's love we have, the more obedient we will be.

So in this grace (God's divine life in us) we grow in God's love and when we have reached a point where there is no more of our self love, love of ourselves and all there is God's divine love in us, then we have trasformed and can say we are "perfect" and holy as HE is.

This is so biblical I can't even contain myself. THIS is what it is to be redeemed, saved by grace, it is to be given the three gifts of faith, hope and love and to, moved by garce, grow in it and have it take over your whole soul. That is when you are ready for heaven.

And Jesus let us know what the path is to achieve this in His grace. It is living the beatitudes, it is carrying a cross of self denile for Christ and it is through making sacrfcies and accepting suffering for Christ sake. That is how we grow in the love of God and become holy.

It is not a presto-magic happening just because we were smart enough to "believe."

 

[lionroar0]

Except that there is no biblical basis for the "S"aint title as opposed to saint, and we all know people do more than just give them the title. Prayers? Feasts?

Biblical support has already been shown. Now if you would like explicit instruction from the Bible well there isn't any. Just as there are no explicit Biblical instruction that everything that we belive must be explicitly mentioned in the Bible.

Peace

 

[Benedicta00]

Biblical support has already been shown. Now if you would like explicit instruction from the Bible well there isn't any. Just as there are no explicit Biblical instruction that everything that we belive must be explicitly mentioned in the Bible.

Peace

just like there is NO explicit instruction that the Catholic Church's practices are condemned.

 

[Benedicta00]

"[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps."
Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18(A.D. 157),in ANF,I:43

Mont, do you know who PolyCarp is or was? He was a student of the apostles John, John even baptized him when he was a BABY.

Check out the date... a little more the 100 years after Christ went up. This is what the first few generations of Christians believed...THIS is the faith that is handed down to us, Catholic.

 

[IamAdopted]

Biblical support has already been shown. Now if you would like explicit instruction from the Bible well there isn't any. Just as there are no explicit Biblical instruction that everything that we belive must be explicitly mentioned in the Bible.

Peace

Well when it comes to spritual matters of faith and practice the bible is sufficient and we are instructed not to exceed what is written.

 

[Kristos]

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called;
1Ti 6:21 which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with you.

 

[mont974x4]

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called;
1Ti 6:21 which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with you.

That's a great verse! Notice it says "guard" not "add to" or "expect future revelations".

Remember
NASB
2Ti 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
2Ti 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


and


2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
2Pe 1:3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.




Nothing suggests future revelation is/was needed. We already have everything we need for life and godliness, to be fully equipped for every good work.

 

[simonthezealot]

Mont, do you know who PolyCarp is or was? He was a student of the apostles John, John even baptized him when he was a BABY.

Check out the date... a little more the 100 years after Christ went up. This is what the first few generations of Christians believed...THIS is the faith that is handed down to us, Catholic.

Not quite sure what your point is here, how is what's said bout Polycarp here any more (C)atholic as you claim than Hus' martyrdom...they were both willing to give their life for their faith in Jesus the Christ! And yet they were both killed by Rome...

 

[Rick Otto]

Benedicta00;So our question to you is, what do you base you honoring them as a Saint on?

Same as scripture. Belief in Jesus Christ.
That is a miracle of grace, not fruit of human nature.

Our Saints who died with the mark of faith displayed the fruits of the Holy Spirit that Paul listed and we can look at their life and according to the beatitudes, we can see that they are "blessed"... blessed to us means you are walking in holiness, and after death, you are in heaven... that's why you are blessed, because you ran the race, kept your focus on Jesus, live the beatific life and you made it, you have your crown, heaven.

Our saints are blessed because they show the fruit of regeneration... belief in Jesus Christ.

What we do when we believe we have a true Saint (one who reached full sanctification while on earth) is we ask God to hear their prayers for us and if God grants our prayers through their intersession, then God has given us confirmation, yes they are in heaven and not going through purgatory. *We* don't get to decide anything, God reveals it to us.

So then you ask dead saints to pray for you. Whatever.

What y'all are doing is talking about what makes a person a doctor of the Church.

No, not even.

That it totally separate from a martyr or Saint. Although Doctors can also be martyrs and Saints as well and 10 times out of 10, they are.

Sounds impossibly complicated, lost somewhere between art & science.

Being declared a doctor of the Church is recognizing that a certain person was endowed with an incredible gift and his theological expressions were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

...Ambiguous & possibly grandiose.

The Catholic Church has made only a few Saints actual doctors of the Church. Augustine is one, St. Theresa of Avila is one, St. Theresa, Little Flower is another.

That shows incredible restraint.

If you guys want, I guess... you can recognize Calvin in your circle because you think he was a "doctor" endowed with a special gift of the Spirit where what he wrote was under the Holy Spirit's inspiration... just don't expect us to agree with you and don't go around making a case that he was holy because his actions said otherwise.

Chill out. No one wants to put Calvin's writings on the level of scripture.

One can also validly argue that because his fruit was so off the mark of what it should have been, he could in no way have been inspired by the Holy Spirit to write theology.

But if a pope has bastard children & dies in the bed of a married woman, his pontifications on faith & morals are still infallible.

But where we get defensie is, honoring with the title Saint as if his behavior is something we all should admire as Christian behavior. That is what we find blasphemous.

You should be so picky about who you title "Father", "Bishop", and "Pope".

 

[Kristos]

That's a great verse! Notice it says "guard" not "add to" or "expect future revelations".

Remember
NASB
2Ti 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
2Ti 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


and


2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
2Pe 1:3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.




Nothing suggests future revelation is/was needed. We already have everything we need for life and godliness, to be fully equipped for every good work.

That's right.

But as you pointed out Paul did write a second letter to Timothy, which presumably was after the first, where he said nothing else was needed So, it would seem that Paul did not see correction and refinement as adding.

Sir 1:1 All wisdom cometh from the Lord, and is with him for ever.

 

[mont974x4]

Did those additional writings add things or clarify things? Many doctrines that are just traditions of men add things, which is why I refer to them as extrabiblical. They put more there than the text really allows for. This practice is not limited to the rcc, I see it happen all the time by legalistic people.