ST. John Calvin

[Reformationist]

Actually I asked why you would, not why you do. So what I am trying to understand why a person would accept the doctrinal and theological statements from people whom they themselves consider to be wrong on doctrinal and theological matters.

You have a confusing way of putting that so if my answer seems illogical or inappropriate, it's because I didn't understand what you're saying. Are you asking why I would see a person's view as credible on one topic if I feel they are wrong on another? Who are these people you're talking about?

From what I was taught is that doctrine and theology is taught by the Church, not an something decided by an individual, such as myself, or any other single person.

Whenever people make these kinds of statements I wonder if they think a voice from God comes wafting out of the walls of their church building, explaining Scripture to them. What is "the Church" if not a collection of individuals, such as yourself or any other single person? Do you mean that you find a collective consensus on interpretive issues more reliable than a single person? No one, saving God Himself, is infallible, whether you have one person or a hundred.

 

[Reformationist]

so how can a person possibly know what is true then?

Michelle, do you profess some personal level of infallibility? Even if you believe your denomination is infallible in its interpretation/understanding of Scripture, how can you be sure that how you understand their infallible teaching on the Scriptures are accurately understood? Does your personal fallibility make the infallible teachings of your denomination illegitimate?

 

[Reformationist]

I won't imply it, I'll just say it, you must be decieved because you claim verses don't say things when the words are actually in the verses I posted. You say my posts say things that they don't and you say that passages of Scripture say things that they don't. What other explanation is there?

Careful, there are people around that petition for others to be banned for remarks like this...

 

[Reformationist]

...and do me a favor, quite implying I'm deceived.

Uh oh Mont...these are the first rumblings of what I was warning you about....

 

[Reformationist]

Told ya....

 

[Kristos]

Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

 

[Benedicta00]

Michelle, do you profess some personal level of infallibility? Even if you believe your denomination is infallible in its interpretation/understanding of Scripture, how can you be sure that how you understand their infallible teaching on the Scriptures are accurately understood? Does your personal fallibility make the infallible teachings of your denomination illegitimate?

It's is a logical fallacy to argue we have to be infallible to submit to Christ's Church.

Faith is a gift Ref, we submit because we have faith in Christ, that what he teaches us is true and that he can not deceive us or be deceived by us.

I put my faith in Christ's Church and her God-given ability to teach me faith amd morals. You put your faith in the bible and your ability to interpret it successfully.

There is no difference between us.

 

[Reformationist]

You've got a strange posting style Kristos...

 

[mont974x4]

I need to remember this passage

NASB
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
2Ti 2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Ti 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
2Ti 2:20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
2Ti 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
2Ti 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
2Ti 2:24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
2Ti 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.






I apologise.

 

[Reformationist]

It's is a logical fallacy to argue we have to be infallible to submit to Christ's Church.

As much as I know you like to use the term "logical fallacy," I fail to see how it is one, or how it applies to a response to me. I never said you had to be infallible to submit to Christ's church.

Faith is a gift Ref, we submit because we have faith in Christ, that what he teaches us is true and that he can not deceive us or be deceived by us.

So you are incapable of being deceived? Do you realize that that would make you infallible?

I put my faith in Christ's Church and her God-given ability to teach me faith amd morals. You put your faith in the bible and your ability to interpret it successfully.

Actually, I place my faith in Christ, for I believe that He is sovereign and, as His Word reveals, will accomplish all that He purposes. If that be my redemption than I have faith that He will achieve that. Feel free to continue putting your faith in fallible man. All you've shown is that you are personally in no different a position than those who subscribe to a belief of sola Scriptura. You are no more assured of having correct doctrine than those you rail against, for you, like they, are fallible.

There is no difference between us.

True, to a degree. We both rely completely on Christ for our redemption. I just recognize it.

 

[IamAdopted]

It's is a logical fallacy to argue we have to be infallible to submit to Christ's Church.

Faith is a gift Ref, we submit because we have faith in Christ, that what he teaches us is true and that he can not deceive us or be deceived by us.

I put my faith in Christ's Church and her God-given ability to teach me faith amd morals. You put your faith in the bible and your ability to interpret it successfully.

There is no difference between us.

But yet those of us who surrender to Christ written word as authority and truth with the Holy Spirit as our teacher for scripture shows us we need no man to teach us but the annointing in us He is our teacher? Whats the difference here? Man verses Holy Spirit?

 

[Benedicta00]

So you are incapable of being deceived? Do you realize that that would make you infallible

Nope I am not which I why i listen to Christ's Church because as I said already, now I'm just repeating it... He can not deceive us nor be deceived by us.

 

[Kristos]

Pro 21:8 The way of man is froward and strange: but as for the pure, his work is right.

 

[Reformationist]

Nope I am not which I why i listen to Christ's Church because as I said already, now I'm just repeating it... He can not deceive us nor be deceived by us.

Well, as I have already said, unless you partake of this mythical level of infallibility you claim your denomination enjoys, you are fallible, meaning that you, personally, can be deceived.

 

[Benedicta00]

As much as I know you like to use the term "logical fallacy," I fail to see how it is one

because it's a false premise. you are making an argument based on something that does not exist.. like me thinking I can not be deceived.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, as I have already said, unless you partake of this mythical level of infallibility you claim your denomination enjoys, you are fallible, meaning that you, personally, can be deceived.

I have never said otherwise. there is only one who can't deceive or be deceived and that's Christ.

 

[Benedicta00]

True, to a degree. We both rely completely on Christ for our redemption. I just recognize it

are you implying I don't?

 

[Reformationist]

are you implying I don't?

Are you implying that you're going to request that I be banned?

Figure it out Michelle.

 

[mont974x4]

I think what he means that since we are all fallible we need to be aware that those teaching us are fallible as well.

 

[Benedicta00]

I think what he means that since we are all fallible we need to be aware that those teaching us are fallible as well.

Christ is fallible?