ST. John Calvin

[Kristos]

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

 

[Benedicta00]

Calvin believed no such thing. Calvin understood the covenantal relationship of baptism. He did not, however, contend that it was regenerational.



Michelle, please cite evidence of what you here accuse me of or remove it. You have proven that you care not whether you bear false witness against others but, at least your blind aspersions will not go unchallanged.

Many Reformed theologians disagree, many indeed believe Calvin saw baptism in the terms of it is regenerational. Like the ECF did.

The Catholic and the original Calvin premises are only inches apart in being different... but those inches are enough to create a huge gulf.

take out the "actively choosing" part and we are pretty close.

 

[simonthezealot]

many indeed believe Calvin saw baptism in the terms of it is regenerational. Like the ECF did.

LOL,
What you mean like Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp and Tertullian?

NONE of whom believed in baptismal REGENERATION!

 

[mont974x4]

some of what all the saints are promised

NASB
Joh 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
Joh 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.


Joh 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Joh 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
Joh 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Joh 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Joh 16:14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

 

[Thekla]

"Brethren, keep on becoming imitators together of me and look to those who so walk, as ye have us for an example."

St. Paul's letter to the Phillipians 3:17

 

[Benedicta00]

some of what all the saints are promised

NASB
Joh 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
Joh 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.


Joh 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Joh 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
Joh 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Joh 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Joh 16:14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

so why do y'all have some disagreements between you all?

 

[mont974x4]

There is a far distance between acknowledging godly men and women, and following their examples, and what the rcc teaches about Saints. As I have shown through Scripture, they took those verses and added to them and built damaging teachings on them.

 

[mont974x4]

Because we are still human, because we grow at different rates and in different areas. These differences do not negate sainthood/salvation. There was plenty of disagreements in the NT that did not destroy the Church and did not seperate the people.

 

[Yeznik]

Why do you listend to people who believe and teach wrong things?

Actually I asked why you would, not why you do. So what I am trying to understand why a person would accept the doctrinal and theological statements from people whom they themselves consider to be wrong on doctrinal and theological matters.

Or is it that you think those who profess the views which you hold to be true are incapable of believing or teaching wrong things?

From what I was taught is that doctrine and theology is taught by the Church, not an something decided by an individual, such as myself, or any other single person.

 

[mont974x4]

Sure we have preachers and teachers who teach doctrine, but we as individuals are called to study for ousrelves and examine what is being taught. Doctrines of men that do not line up with Scrioture are to be discarded.

 

[Benedicta00]

Sure we have preahcers and teachers who teach doctrine, but we as individuals are called to study for ousrelves and examine what is being taught. Doctrines of men that do not line up with Scrioture are to be discarded.

and where's that taught in scripture??

 

[Benedicta00]

Because we are still human, because we grow at different rates and in different areas. These differences do not negate sainthood/salvation. There was plenty of disagreements in the NT that did not destroy the Church and did not seperate the people.

so how can a person possibly know what is true then?

 

[mont974x4]

and where's that taught in scripture??

NASB

1Co 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1Co 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.


Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.


study
NASB
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

 

[Benedicta00]

NASB

1Co 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1Co 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.


Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.


study
NASB
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

None of those teach what you said Mont... sorry.

 

[mont974x4]

LOL yes, they do. The first clearly show that some are called and gifted as preachers and teachers and the last one shows we all should be able to rightly handle Scripture.

May you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[Benedicta00]

LOL yes, they do. The first clearly show that some are called and gifted as preachers and teachers and the last one shows we all should be able to rightly handle Scripture.

May you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

well if the bible say this, then what's the problem? Why do so many teach do many conflicting things?

May you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

what? Which doctrine of the bible sent preachers are you hoping I will open up to?

I got lots to choose from that's certain.

In practice Mont, this premise just breaks down and that is what I pray you will come to realize.

and do me a favor, quite implying I'm deceived.

 

[mont974x4]

You claim verses don't say things when the words are actually in the verses I posted. You say my posts say things that they don't and you say that passages of Scripture say things that they don't. What other explanation is there?


How is you saying you pray I will see the truth any different from what I posted?

 

[Benedicta00]

I won't imply it, I'll just say it, you must be decieved because you claim verses don't say things when the words are actually in the verses I posted. You say my posts say things that they don't and you say that passages of Scripture say things that they don't. What other explanation is there?

you know what...

 

[Reformationist]

Many Reformed theologians disagree, many indeed believe Calvin saw baptism in the terms of it is regenerational. Like the ECF did.

Calvin was quite clear on regeneration and he didn't see it as a product of the works of man. You clearly know nothing of what Calvin believed for your entire understanding comes from others.

 

[Benedicta00]

Calvin was quite clear on regeneration and he didn't see it as a product of the works of man. You clearly know nothing of what Calvin believed for your entire understanding comes from others.

and there is the rub... the fly in the ointment... he contradicted himself...

Children Should Also Have Life In Christ
Calvin stands opposed to those who would have children barred from baptism because of their age. These people claim that young children are unable to understand the mystery signified in baptism and are therefore considered as children of Adam until they reach an appropriate age for the second birth(Inst.4, 16, 17). Calvin vehemently contests that "God's truth everywhere opposes all these arguments"(Inst.4, 16, 17). Calvin accurately observes that if infants are regarded as the children of Adam, "they are left in death, since in Adam we can but die(Rom.5:12)"(Inst.4, 16, 17). On the contrary, Calvin points out, Christ commands that the children be brought to him(Matt.19:14). Calvin anticipates the objection "that infants do not perish though they are counted as children of Adam" and refutes it manifesting that Scripture declares that in Adam all die, and it follows that no hope of life remains except in Christ(1Cor.15:22; Inst.4, 16, 17). When we recall that Christ declares that he is life(John 11:25), we must acquiesce with Calvin when he asserts that "we must be engrafted into him in order to be freed from bondage to death"(Inst.4, 16, 17).

Calvin also anticipates the objection, "how are infants, unendowed with knowledge of good or evil, regenerated?"(Inst.4, 16, 17). Calvin's reply is that "God's work, though beyond our understanding, is still not annulled"(Inst.4, 16, 17). Calvin is cognizant of the fact that if infants are born sinners, as Scripture affirms(Eph.2:3; Ps.51:5), either they remain hateful to God, or they must be justified. While Calvin agrees that the water itself does not necessarily save, he reminds us that John the Baptist was sanctified in his mother's womb(Luke 1:15), and for Calvin this is "something he could do in others"(Inst.4, 16, 17).

When others object to infant baptism on the grounds that baptism is given for the forgiveness of sins, Calvin suggests that this "abundantly supports our view"(Inst.4, 16, 22). Calvin argues that since we are born sinners, we need forgiveness and pardon "from the time in our mother's womb"(Inst.4, 16, 22). Since God does not withhold from children the hope of mercy(Matt.19:14), Calvin argues that "they must not be deprived of the sign"(Inst.4, 16, 22).