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ST. John Calvin

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lionroar0

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Romans 8

29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
 
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Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

LOL! Riiiight. You guys bow to statues of the creation because you're giving glory to the Creator. Sure. Good one. Giving glory to God because of the works of His servant is completely different than what both your and the Roman denomination do.

Exodus 20:4-6
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Seem rather clear, even if you claim that bowing down to them isn't worshipping them, for the passage itself differentiates between "bowing down to them" and "serving them."
 
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Romans 8

29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

One of my favorite verses in all of the Bible. Knowing that God's love for His elect ensures that they were predestined unto eternal fellowship with Him and called to that purpose and will be likewise justified and glorified through the dispensation of His invincible grace is truly a comfort to those who trust in God rather than in the traditions of man for their redemption. Truly, it renders those who laud the "free will" of man, as does your own error laden denomination, as truly the purveyors of untruth and nothing more.
 
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lionroar0

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This is most ridiculous thing of all. We, even you, are well aware that referring to the children of God as saints is not only endorsed in Scripture, but a part of both of our sets of beliefs. Your issue is with the fact that we are capatalizing the word in reference to someone you and your denomination despise. That is all there is to your bluster. We show honor to Calvin because we believe he did a great thing in spreading the Truth of Scripture. That the byproduct of his doing so was the enlightenment of many to the unbiblical practices of your denomination was completely secondary. Identifying the unbiblical nature of the teachings of your denomination is simply an unavoidable fruit of spreading the truth.


As I suspect. There is no objective evidence with in your christian tradition to the giving the title of Saint to a person. Which is a Catholic practice.

Any student of the Scriptures is well aware of the way God uses some people in greater ways than others. The glory for this, of course, belongs primarily and foremost to God Himself, who works all in all. That said, it is perfectly fine to acknowledge those who have made contributions to the Kingdom that are more visible and influential than others, for it helps us to emulate those we admire.

The above is the reason why the CC canonizes Saints.


You and your religious kin presume that because you have differentiated by the use of a grammatical device that such distinction is the domain of you and yours alone. It simply isn't and such presumption reveals nothing more than arrogance. In short, if you don't like what's on T.V., change the channel.

As we have shown it isn't just a grammatical device. There is an actual process. The above is nothing but another straw man.

Wow...that was snappy. Makes absotely no sense nor does it have the first thing to do with our debate. The Scriptures are not from your denomination. They are from God. Even the early church recognized this with their acknowledgement that they received the truth of God rather than having established it as such.

False dichonomy the ealry church was the Catholic Church and she recognized the Scritpures.

In case that was too rational for your unbalanced way of viewing things, I'll spell it out. I want everything to do with the Truth of God and nothing to do with your denomination's perversion of the Scriptures, or their own overblown and unjustified claim of authority.

A stated the anti-catholicism is showing.

I'm well aware what anthropcentric means. It means centered around man.

God became man. He was born into this world as a man and God. Catholicism is centered around only one man that is Jesus who is also God.

In case that was too rational for your unbalanced way of viewing things, I'll spell it out.

LOL. You know nothing about me.


Peace
 
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lionroar0

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You guys bow to statues of the creation because you're giving glory to the Creator. Sure. Good one. Giving glory to God because of the works of His servant is completely different than what both your and the Roman denomination do.

Kristos is not Roman Catholic he is Eastern Orthodox.

You know the other Church which also is in the pracitice of Canonizing Saints. Which I mentioned a few posts back.

Peace
 
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lionroar0

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One of my favorite verses in all of the Bible. Knowing that God's love for His elect ensures that they were predestined unto eternal fellowship with Him and called to that purpose and will be likewise justified and glorified through the dispensation of His invincible grace is truly a comfort to those who trust in God rather than in the traditions of man for their redemption. Truly, it renders those who laud the "free will" of man, as does your own error laden denomination, as truly the purveyors of untruth and nothing more.

If you would stop condeming that which you neither understand nor know and actually learn.

The CC does teach limited predestation.


Peace
 
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lionroar0

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It would be just like a Catholic to miss the forest for the trees. What we see in this thread is nothing more than anti-Calvinism. Despite your posturing, the world doesn't revolve around your denomination.

Who's posturing?

The rest of your post was drivel, which doesn't necessarily distinguish it from the portion to which I did respond. Either way, your version of "objective" is only that which is endorsed by the leaders of your denomination. As they would never see Calvin as a saint worthy of admiration, I doubt I could provide anything that sufficed for your jaded understanding of "objective."

ANd yet you have provided no objective evidence. While on the other hand we have.

And the adhominems keep coming.

Peace

 
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lionroar0

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The rest of your post was drivel, which doesn't necessarily distinguish it from the portion to which I did respond. Either way, your version of "objective" is only that which is endorsed by the leaders of your denomination. As they would never see Calvin as a saint worthy of admiration, I doubt I could provide anything that sufficed for your jaded understanding of "objective."

I could see him as a saint. Not as a Saint. If he did something worth admiring then shows us what it is.

Instead posting assertions and claims with no evidence.

Peace
 
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mont974x4

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I could see him as a saint. Not as a Saint. If he did something worth admiring then shows us what it is.

Instead posting assertions and claims with no evidence.

Peace
That's the crux, isn't it? The basis of these discussions on Calvin and Luther? We are all saints if we are His. It really is that simple. There is no call from Scripture for what the RCC does regarding Sainthood.
 
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lionroar0

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That's the crux, isn't it? The basis of these discussions on Calvin and Luther? We are all saints if we are His. It really is that simple. There is no call from Scripture for what the RCC does regarding Sainthood.

That's your opinion. For those of us who do have the christian practice of calling people Saints, there's plenty of Scriptural proof.

Peace
 
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As I suspect. There is no objective evidence with in your christian tradition to the giving the title of Saint to a person. Which is a Catholic practice.

Again, this matters not. And, as I previously stated, it is clear that your objection to our usage of the title is simply one against the person to whom we seek to pay honor rather than the fact that we are using a title that you errantly, or arrogantly, feel is the exclusive purview of your denomination. I've referred to Augustine as St. Augustine a number of times on this MB and have never once encountered an objection from any of you. I would expect the same lack of objection if I were to refer to any of those to whom your denomination believes they have honored with a title that you believe was yours to give. It is not the Roman church's designation of someone that makes their acts meritorious. All you do in bestowing the title, whether it is warranted or not, is that of recognition of what you perceive as holiness. What is plain to all who are not consumed with fealty to the leaders of your denomination is that you take no issue with our usage of the title so long as it is one that you, yourself, feel is appropriately bestowed. It's similar in nature to our employment of terms like "predestination" and "regeneration." We both use the terms, we simply use them in reference to a different set of beliefs regarding the role of God in the life of the believer. That you assume we use or, rather, recognize that the title is appropriately bestowed on someone whom your denomination does not recognize as deserving only proves that you think we justify using the title for the same pitiful, anthropocentric reasons that your denomination does. It simply is not the case. We believe John Calvin was deserving and we believe he played a role in God's plan to reveal the corruption in the continuing practices of your denomination. That said, he is deserving not because of what he did so much as what God did through him.

The above is the reason why the CC canonizes Saints.

Great. I'm not here complaining about your usage of the title on someone that I see as unworthy. That, however, seems to be your MO, and all based on the delusional concept that the OP referred to Calvin as St. Calvin on the same grounds that your denomination bestows the title which, in the eyes of many, though none whose opinion likely matters to you, serves as more of an indictment.

As we have shown it isn't just a grammatical device. There is an actual process. The above is nothing but another straw man.

And again, it matters not that you see such claims as a strawman. Your "process" is nothing that stands justified before God. It is merely the perception of man, based on nothing more than the elevation of the traditions of fallen man. In short, your application of St. vs. saint is of no consequence, for it is of no value before God. If you simply mean to applaud those you see as contributory to the establishment of the Kingdom of God, feel free. Your denomination doesn't consult me on whether I think a person fits the bill so I have no doubt that they care not what I think on the matter, just as I, and others who recognize Calvin's contribution, could care less that you and yours show disdain for him.

False dichonomy the ealry church was the Catholic Church and she recognized the Scritpures.

I understand that the "early church" was the Church catholica, though all you contend in my eyes is that the church has been in error for a long time. But alas, such is the way of man, that without restraint he will pursue a road that elevates himself. Such has been the case in the Church body for quite some time, though I submit that the bridle that was put in place by the reformers did much to stem the tide of destruction that is left in the wake of denominations such as your own.

A stated the anti-catholicism is showing.

Why do you say this as if it should give me pause? If the Catholic denomination perverts Scripture, which they surely do, then as a child of God I am bound to be against that. Whether my views of Scripture are accurate or not, there is far too much of God's Word that explicitly refutes the views of your church for me to ever fall prey to the anthropocentric nonsense that is preached within her halls.

I'm well aware what anthropcentric means. It means centered around man.

God became man. He was born into this world as a man and God. Catholicism is centered around only one man that is Jesus who is also God.

That was clever, in a really misguided way. No lion, the term anthropocentric, while you are correct in understanding it to mean "man centered," refers to the emphasis that denominations like your own place on the created man.

LOL. You know nothing about me.

I daresay that's true of my knowledge of everyone on this board, at least in the general sense. I know that you are devoted to defending your views and your denomination, however misguided that loyalty may be. My cursory knowledge of you may be insufficient to determine what type of person you are but I hold no illusions regarding your willingness, or lackthereof, to consider anything but what spews forth from the pulpits of your church.
 
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mont974x4

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Oh, I have no problem calling people saints. That is biblcial....over 60 verses if I recall correctly.

However, none of those verses require a formal recognition by the RCC, and special feast days, praying to them, attributing miracles to them or elevating any of them above another one. In fact, most (if not all)of those verses address believers that are still alive on earth. Simply put, biblically, there are believers/saints and there are non-beleivers/not saints.
 
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Kristos is not Roman Catholic he is Eastern Orthodox.

Thanks for stating the obvious there Captain. As you can see in the quote that you seem oblivious to but felt justified in citing, I said, "Giving glory to God because of the works of His servant is completely different than what both your and the Roman denomination do." That's what we call a distinction. When one says "both" it refers to two distinct and separate entities, though I will acknowledge that in many ways, it is a distinction without a difference.

You know the other Church which also is in the pracitice of Canonizing Saints. Which I mentioned a few posts back.

Quite possibly you may want to digest what is said before you respond. Doing so may help prevent you making this same glaring display of ineptitude in the future.


Oh yes, well, peace to you as well.
 
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If you would stop condeming that which you neither understand nor know and actually learn.

Oh do teach wise one...and by all means, don't hesitate to follow your own advice.

The CC does teach limited predestation.

That's fortunate, as it is a biblical concept that is spoken of explicitly. As such, all Christian faiths must have a doctrine addressing predestination. Yours is no different. And, just so you know, I am well aware of your denomination's unbiblical and, yes, anthropocentric, view of predestination. I linked it back in post 392 for your hovering young padawan, though at the moment I cannot recall whether he claims affiliation to your denomination or the EO. Either way, what I linked was the Roman view of predestination.
 
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I could see him as a saint. Not as a Saint. If he did something worth admiring then shows us what it is.

Well, there are numerous things though I imagine that, in your eyes, they rank more as reasons to reject him than embrace him. I would say he played a great role in revealing the unbiblical practices and beliefs of the Roman church and, for that matter, all other semi-Pelagian denominations.

Does that suffice for you, oh great and esteemed lionroar0, to recognize him as, at least, a saint?

Yeah, didn't think so.
 
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That's your opinion.

Hello pot, meet kettle.

For those of us who do have the christian practice of calling people Saints, there's plenty of Scriptural proof.

Please, that we may be as versed in the subject as you, or at least more versed in the subject, share with us the "Scriptural proof" of your denomination's bestowal of the term Saint as it differs from the biblical reference to the people of God.
 
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Rick Otto

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Well I would say that saints was used first by Paul and I know He was not catholic.. He was jewish. :) He also was an ambassador for Christ..
OK, so we have apostles of Christ & ambassadors of Christ... but lets not have an Attorney General for Christ!:D
 
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lionroar0

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Oh, I have no problem calling people saints. That is biblcial....over 60 verses if I recall correctly.

Exactly my point.

However, none of those verses require a formal recognition by the RCC, and special feast days, praying to them, attributing miracles to them or elevating any of them above another one. In fact, most (if not all)of those verses address believers that are still alive on earth. Simply put, biblically, there are believers/saints and there are non-beleivers/not saints.

Not all belivers did and do all of what you have mentiomed above.

Also the Sainst have been perfected in Christ in this life. They finished the race in this life.

Matt: 5:8
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This is why they are recognized as Saints.

We are all called to try to be perfect in Christ. Not all believers are perfected in Christ in this life.

Peace
 
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