ST. John Calvin

[thereselittleflower]

and there is no honer due to John Calvin.

No, none.

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[thereselittleflower]

What is this my guy is holier than your guy? If they are both born again Christians then what is the difference?

Wha'ts the difference?

HUGE!

First, what miracles did Calvin ever perform? What does an examiniation of his life reveal? It reveals preaching of hatred, rebellion, not the perfect love and holiness of a true saint who is to be honored and revered as a wonderful example of the christian walk and life.

It is God who justifies and sanctifies...

That's right, and we can only see the evidence of this after their death.

For us, those who are entitled with the special title Saints are living members of the Church, able to work good on our behalf. That is why miracles can be proven to be a direct result of prayers to them asking for their intercession and help AFTER they have died, and often before so as well.

Where are such evidences for Calvin?

You think our Lord would pick one over the other based on their earthly theology? or are you suggesting that jp2 lead a holier life than calvin?

Suggesting? No, not suggesting. CLAIMING! ABSOLUTELY!

And JPII has not been declared a Saint of the Church yet.

holier based on what? human interpretation...

Oh come now. The differences are obvious to anyone who does a serious comparison.

John Calvin MAY have along with Luther and others lead millions out of the depths of hell...

No, I don't believe so. They endangered millions of souls. You cannot lead away from truth without doing so.

Out of the beast and unto salvation by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, if one reads God's written word in its plain sense it certainly would appear this way.

And here we go again, equating the Catholic Church with the Beast of Revelaiton.

You realize you just declared our faith NOT CHRISTIAN.

Yet you are trying to apply our tradition of giving this TITLE SAINT to a non Catholic and follow our practice.


So what does that make what you did here in the title of this thread?

Following and immitating "the beast"????


Sounds rather hypocritical to me. You are contradicting yourself right and left.


Enough with the slams against the Catholic Church!


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[thereselittleflower]

Simon, I don't think you understand what blasphemy is . . . . you keep calling the wrong things "blasphemy". . . .

I think I will go along with what the Early Church taught, not yours or Calvin's version (which is blasphemy according to the Early Church).

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[simonthezealot]

First, what miracles did Calvin ever perform?
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You think performing miracles qualifies for sainthood in the eyes of our Lord...Here is something He said to this regard...

Matt 7:22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Enough with the slams against the Catholic Church!

You began by belittling the saints of the reformers faith....
Shine forth a little Christian good will, and in response you'll get the same respect in return!

 

[jckstraw72]

Matt 7:22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Christ also said others would come and do greater miracles than even He did.

 

[thereselittleflower]

You think performing miracles qualifies for sainthood in the eyes of our Lord...Here is something He said to this regard...

Matt 7:22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

That's why I said after death. Then there can be no question.

You began by belittling the saints of the reformers faith....
Shine forth a little Christian good will, and in response you'll get the same respect in return!

The use of the TITLE saint the way it was used in this title is not how Protestants talk about their leaders.

It is a Catholic and Eastern Orthodox practice and not a protestant one.

As such, to use this TITLE (which means these people are held up to us to imitate and follow their example in life) of people whom the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox would never consider worthy of such a TITLE. is a slam against our faiths and is blasphemous to us.

Protestantism does not lift its leaders up for veneration by their followers. To use the Title SAINT before a name is to do just that. So since this is not the practice of Protestantism, for a protesant to do so here in a form about Mary and the Saints and their veneration, etc, has some other purpose than simple genuine discussion.

I am fully convinced the author isi well aware of this.

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[pingypoo]

John Calvin (July 10, 1509 – May 27, 1564) was a French Protestant theologian during the Protestant Reformation and was a central developer of the system of Christian theology called Calvinism or Reformed theology. In Geneva, he rejected Papal authority, established a new scheme of civic and ecclesiastical governance, and created a central hub from which Reformed theology was propagated.

this one too is he a saint? i've never heard of him being a saint either, i know alot about saints but i just have never heard of these two or three being cannonized.

 

[Benedicta00]

What is this my guy is holier than your guy? If they are both born again Christians then what is the difference?

Actual holiness. Not presumed holiness.

John Calvin MAY have along with Luther and others lead millions out of the depths of hell...

Or into.

Just because they invented sola scripture does not mean they can be called a Saint.

 

[Benedicta00]

Sounds rather hypocritical to me. You are contradicting yourself right and left.

I said that from the beginning, ironic isn't it? To worship these men.. ummm I mean honor them for their works...

problem is, look at the works SZ thinks we should be honoring them for.

 

[Benedicta00]

You began by belittling the saints of the reformers faith....
Shine forth a little Christian good will, and in response you'll get the same respect in return!

You have got to be kidding me... as many threads as you and guys like you open against the Mother of God, the real true Saints of Christ's Church and the faith in general?

One even said Mother Theresa was an atheist in this thread... so again, you are joking right?

 

[Benedicta00]

this one too is he a saint? i've never heard of him being a saint either, i know alot about saints but i just have never heard of these two or three being cannonized.

No, the OP is just being ironic. In his wishful thinking he wants the Protestant Reformers to be added on to the number of great Saints the Church has declared over the last 2000 years.

Not realizing that what he wishes is blasphemy and idol worship according to his own premises. I know... it makes no logical sense.

 

[simonthezealot]

No, the OP is just being ironic. In his wishful thinking he wants the Protestant Reformers to be added on to the number of great Saints the Church has declared over the last 2000 years.

Where did you ever hear me saying I wanted to put them in any category from your church? As I mentioned before, the three people I noted Hus Luther and Calvin are important people in reformed theology which IS biblical Christianity, Paul clearly spells out what a saint is in scripture these guys are saints and servants of our Lord Jesus Christ, I desired to speak of them so I posted them in the hagiography because to me and many of my counterparts they are some of the saints of our church.

 

[Reformationist]

Yet you are trying to apply our tradition of giving this TITLE SAINT to a non Catholic and follow our practice.

Despite the incessant posturing of those in your denomination, the title of "saint" is not the exclusive purview of your denomination. A saint is one who is justified by God. Again, unless you intend to contend that only those within the halls of your denomination will be justified before God, then you make a distinction without a difference. We are not applying your tradition. We are acknowledging that we believe John Calvin has personified the traits of a faithful believer, though we are well aware that he was a fallible human who made mistakes along his journey. Your presumption that someone is only a saint if your denomination pronounces them such is only recognized as such by those who submit to your denominational leaders authority to pronounce someone holy as if they can do more than recognize what only God do.

Enough with the slams against the Catholic Church!

You know, you'd think that those of you who scream foul whenever someone makes a disparaging remark toward your denomination would be less inclined to make similar comments about people that non-Catholics hold in high regard. You guys moan and groan whenever anyone intimates or implies that your denomination teaches contrary to the express revelations of the Bible claiming that it is wrong to do so on the grounds that it implies you are "un-Christian." What a ludicrous statement. That's what we're all saying about each other's beliefs. If we're right, and what we believe is true Christianity, then your views most certainly cannot be Christian. Every time you guys rail about the views of the reformers, you're doing the exact same thing, calling them, and those that follow those beliefs as practitioners of un-Christian doctrine.

In short, get off your high horse. We're not saying anything you're not.

 

[Reformationist]

You have got to be kidding me... as many threads as you and guys like you open against the Mother of God, the real true Saints of Christ's Church and the faith in general?

Please, for the edification of all, justify these remarks. No Christian that I know of has ever started a thread "against the Mother of God, the real true saints of Christ's church or the faith in general." We do, however, start threads acknowledging the error in your view of Mary, the presumption of those you think are "the real true saints" and your misguided and arrogant misunderstanding of faith.

You are not the Christian Church. AT BEST, you are part of it.

 

[Benedicta00]

Please, for the edification of all, justify these remarks. No Christian that I know of has ever started a thread "against the Mother of God, the real true saints of Christ's church or the faith in general." We do, however, start threads acknowledging the error in your view of Mary, the presumption of those you think are "the real true saints" and your misguided and arrogant misunderstanding of faith.

You are not the Christian Church. AT BEST, you are part of it.

Are you denying that SZ has a lot of gusto to actually complain because we aren't treating his hero Calvin with the worship... er, I mean honor, reverence and respect he thinks he deserves?

You are not the Christian Church. AT BEST, you are part of it.

That's just what you think.. you so happen to be wrong.

 

[Reformationist]

Are you denying that SZ has a lot of gusto to actually complain because we aren't treating his hero Calvin with the worship... er, I mean honor, reverence and respect he thinks he deserves?

I seriously doubt that anyone familiar with you or your fellow Catholics would ever lay their hopes in the idea that you'd say anything more about Calvin than that he was a heretic.

Not that I think it will make a difference but, the numerous and intentional references you make to worshipping vs. revering weren't funny the first time. They're not even clever. Unless you're trying to reveal that you are immature, you may want to persue a different track.

That's just what you think.. you so happen to be wrong.

Well, I daresay that it's not just me that thinks that but, either way, just because you say I'm wrong doesn't make it so. However, if it pleases you, I will retract my inclusion of you in the body of Christ. I had thought I was being generous and ecumenical but, I'd rather not offend if possible.

 

[simonthezealot]

Are you denying that SZ has a lot of gusto to actually complain because we aren't treating his hero Calvin with the worship... er, I mean honor, reverence and respect he thinks he deserves?
.

I don't recall complaining, I think your thinking of tlf acting as if it was some travesty that I used the title saint for people I acknowledge as leaders in MY faith.

 

[Benedicta00]

Despite the incessant posturing of those in your denomination, the title of "saint" is not the exclusive purview of your denomination. A saint is one who is justified by God. Again, unless you intend to contend that only those within the halls of your denomination will be justified before God, then you make a distinction without a difference. We are not applying your tradition. We are acknowledging that we believe John Calvin has personified the traits of a faithful believer, though we are well aware that he was a fallible human who made mistakes along his journey. Your presumption that someone is only a saint if your denomination pronounces them such is only recognized as such by those who submit to your denominational leaders authority to pronounce someone holy as if they can do more than recognize what only God do.



You know, you'd think that those of you who scream foul whenever someone makes a disparaging remark toward your denomination would be less inclined to make similar comments about people that non-Catholics hold in high regard. You guys moan and groan whenever anyone intimates or implies that your denomination teaches contrary to the express revelations of the Bible claiming that it is wrong to do so on the grounds that it implies you are "un-Christian." What a ludicrous statement. That's what we're all saying about each other's beliefs. If we're right, and what we believe is true Christianity, then your views most certainly cannot be Christian. Every time you guys rail about the views of the reformers, you're doing the exact same thing, calling them, and those that follow those beliefs as practitioners of un-Christian doctrine.

In short, get off your high horse. We're not saying anything you're not.

Well yes and no... you aren't understanding this in it's proper context.

We have living saints and we have canonized Saints and then we have ordinary saints, anyone in heaven is a saint. They may not all be great Saints, but they are saints none the less.

You ought not confuse these differences.

Yes, it's true that Paul referred to those baptized persons (aka, justified (redeemed) persons) in the bible as saints (we do not deny that he did) because back then... those ppl were holy, they were what we call living saints. It was proper to call those Christians back then saints...they all ended up martyred for the faith and that sealed their sanctity and is why we now call them great Saints.

So we aren't disagreeing with you, yes... we do have living saints among us now, but like John says, "What we will be remains to be seen..."

And we, all the baptized, are all called to be saints (called to be saved), but few are chosen to be great Saints and few are chosen to be saints at all... and that's God business, not really ours. He has mercy on who He will, He hardens who He will.

Just because one is "born again" does not in of itself ensure they will be chosen to be a great Saint, it doesn't even ensure we will be a saint at all (saved at all) because like the bible says, "Those who endure to the end will be saved."

But all of us ARE called to be saints (saved) none the less and we are going to be saints one day, we are all on that path right now towards that. We are all working out our salvation just like Paul said we all have to do.

But only IF... like the bible says, IF we endure to the end we will be saved (made a saint) and after we have gone through purification whether in, "This world or the world to come..." we will see the face of God once we are pure ("The pure of heart will see the face of God").

And it's then we will be called holy and perfect as God is holy and perfect, it's then we can say we have "worked out" our salvation.

If John Calvin and Martin Luther in spite of the errors they taught and in spite of the fact that they may have led countless numbers of ppl into their same error, if they were just working out their own salvation as best as they knew how according to the light and grace God gave to each of them, hopefully in spite of their great error, hopefully they are at least in purgatory and saved.

And I'll even go one further and say hopefully they are done with purgatory and are with our dear Lord face to face right now.

In that small sense yes, one can call them a saint but it's pure conjecture, pure speculation, it's holding out the virtue of hope for them is what it is, hope is one of the three theological virtues that Christ died to give us.

In Christ we can have hope for anyone's salvation even two like Calvin and Luther because they were baptized, they were born again. Becuase of Christ, no one is ever with out hope.

 

[Benedicta00]

I seriously doubt that anyone familiar with you or your fellow Catholics would ever lay their hopes in the idea that you'd say anything more about Calvin than that he was a heretic.

Not that I think it will make a difference but, the numerous and intentional references you make to worshipping vs. revering weren't funny the first time. They're not even clever. Unless you're trying to reveal that you are immature, you may want to persue a different track.



Well, I daresay that it's not just me that thinks that but, either way, just because you say I'm wrong doesn't make it so. However, if it pleases you, I will retract my inclusion of you in the body of Christ. I had thought I was being generous and ecumenical but, I'd rather not offend if possible.

If you are a Calvinist, then I know you were just being nice and ecumenical.

I am well aware what your invisible lose "church" body, documents say... that the pope is the son of Satan, etc. That this lose body of believers were given the keys to the kingdom as per Matthew 16 and this authority your church confession gives themselves is what damns the pope. (So sad that y'all actually believe that but I digress.)

Your faith comes down to you from the Puritans who came from England to America to establish a anti Catholic, anti Anglican, anti anything that does not agree with them, world.

It didn't work out for them... Catholicism flourished none the less but what it did do is create this phenomena of religious hatred and bias.

A little digging into historical facts and you will see where all this hatred, bias and bigotry for the Catholic Church comes from.

So back to my point, it's a little, pot calling the kettle blackish to get offended because we do not view Calvin in the same light as you do.

He can not be called a saint simply because his life examined reveals he did not possess any of the fruits of a great Saint.

 

[simonthezealot]

we do have living saints among us now, but like John says, "What we will be remains to be seen..."

Because you are common to proof texting I find it necessary to show things in proper context...

I assume this is what you speak of...
1 John 3
1See (A)how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called (B)children of God; and such we are For this reason the world does not know us, because (C)it did not know Him.

2(D)Beloved, now we are (E)children of God, and (F)it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He (G)appears, we will be like Him, because we will (I)see Him just as He is.