St. Augustine on Predestination

[R.J.S]

The following is taken from Augustine's The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love:

Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God's Free Grace.

And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens." And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, "who being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger." And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: "What shall we say then?" he says: "Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, "not of works," but, "of future works," and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, "God forbid;" that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God's doing this, and says: "For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Now, who but a fool would think that God was unrighteous, either in inflicting penal justice on those who had earned it, or in extending mercy to the unworthy? Then he draws his conclusion: "So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy." Thus both the twins were born children of wrath, not on account of any works of their own, but because they were bound in the fetters of that original condemnation which came through Adam. But He who said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy," loved Jacob of His undeserved grace, and hated Esau of His deserved judgment. And as this judgment was due to both, the former learned from the case of the latter that the fact of the same punishment not falling upon himself gave him no room to glory in any merit of his own, but only in the riches of the divine grace; because "it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy." And indeed the whole face, and, if I may use the expression, every lineament of the countenance of Scripture conveys by a very profound analogy this wholesome warning to every one who looks carefully into it, that he who glories should glory in the Lord.
​

 

[jckstraw72]

see the City of God where St. Augustine speaks of the foreknowledge of God without mention of predestination

nothing in your quote indicates a lack of free will

 

[lighthousekid]

... and just his opinion, anyway.

 

[R.J.S]

nothing in your quote indicates a lack of free will

Never said it did.

 

[Jipsah]

see the City of God where St. Augustine speaks of the foreknowledge of God without mention of predestination

St Augustine didn't have to talk about predestination, the Scripture does so explicitly.

nothing in your quote indicates a lack of free will

The existence of sin presupposes the existence of Free Will.

 

[Secundulus]

In this writing, St. Augustine speaks of predestination in exactly the same terms as Thomas Aquinas and later John Calvin.

Before the foundation of the world God predestines some to salvation and others to reprobation. Our free will has absolutely nothing to do with it.

On the Predestination of the Saints

 

[John 1720]

In this writing, St. Augustine speaks of predestination in exactly the same terms as Thomas Aquinas and later John Calvin.

Before the foundation of the world God predestines some to salvation and others to reprobation. Our free will has absolutely nothing to do with it.

link on the Predestination of the Saints (Augustine)

This is of course all well and good for those who practice Augustianity and Calvinanity but all the philosophical reasoning of Augustine leaves me wondering what happened to Christianity and the faith once delivered from the pure hands of the Apostles. Didn't Paul state that our faith should not stand in persuasive words but in the power of God. At least he did say so in Corinth:

1Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Col 2:4-8 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your [good] order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ. As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Why all the bother to go preach the Gospel if our choice to repent and fall upon God's mercy does not matter. Why did God tell the prophet to warn the wicked if God Himself created them for Hell? There seems to be personal responibility to repent and turn to God, yet much of what Augustine states appears fatalistic at best and does not agree with simple statements made by God to the prophet Ezekiel.

Eze 33:9-11 "Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: 'Thus you say, "If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?" ' Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Is this some mirage that God says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked? If He has no pleasure in it why did He create them for hell in the first place. Are we in our zealousness to proclaim Him Soveriegn declaring God of duplicity in what He says? Why does He desire the wicked to turn from their way if He is the one who pulls the strings, so to speak? Cannot He in His Sovereignty do what He Wills. I would argue from Scripture that God is Sovereign and that He loves freedom and is not coercive. John states God is Love. I believe even small love cannot be forced. How much more so infinite Love? Love is sovereign with freedom but what is sovereignty without love? Why would God bother to demonstrate His love to us if love were not reciprocal?

Letter to the Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Why does Peter, the Lord's Apostle state God is NOT willing that any should perish but desires that all would come to repentance if God has already willed before they were born to be damned for all eternity? Does this even make any sense?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

While Christians have always believed in predestination I have not seen anything that would defer this is not from God's foreknowledge. Since time itself is a subset of eternity, what is accomplished in time is already a foregone conclusion in eternity. God's own Word went out and did not return unto Him void but accomplished His Will and Purposes. Yet in time that Word is still going out and doing His Work according to His Will. We can therefore say it is already accomplished in eternity and at the same time say it is yet to be accomplished in time but by Faith it shall be done. As Peter again states, we are elect (or predestined) by the foreknowledge of God.

1Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

No doubt Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine, and specifically the later Augustine after he was chastised by Pelagius for putting forth a theology that contributed to the immorality he witnessed while in Rome. The earlier Augustine believed in a free will theology but I am not going to analyze the flip or the background leading up to that point. The main point of Christianity to me is are we going to believe the Gospel that was delivered to us by the Apostles. I'm not sure Augustine when he made his treatise against the Pelegians was following what the Apostle and their subsequent successors taught but that will take more discussion than a mere page. I will however leave the discussion with one whom I know to have followed apostolic succession. The Apostle John discipled Polycarp, who subsequently discipled Irenaeus. Irenaues had much to say on this subject:

Against Heresies IV
Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, (Mt 23:37) set forth the ancient law of himan liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.....
He further adds:
4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man's power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient; 1 Corinthians 6:12 referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect all things are lawful, God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] not expedient pointing out that we should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness, 1 Peter 2:16

Would Augustine have also claimed Ireneaus as a heretic? It makes one wonder exactly what was the agenda here.
Respectfully, John 1720

 

[JackSparrow]

This subject is fought over in the soteriology board.

It would be good if you guys joined the fray.

 

[John 1720]

Hmmm, I did post but it doesn't appear that thread is active any longer - not too surprised as there appeared to be alot of head butting going on there.
John 1720

 

[pshun2404]

In this writing, St. Augustine speaks of predestination in exactly the same terms as Thomas Aquinas and later John Calvin.

Before the foundation of the world God predestines some to salvation and others to reprobation. Our free will has absolutely nothing to do with it.

On the Predestination of the Saints

Yeah, but Augustine was not correct and Aquinas and Calvin followed in this error. God does not create people to sin and be damned, if He does then He is the author of sin and the whole fall is His fault not the Serpents and more which refutes this error (many many scriptures).

Secondly, the rest of Christendom did not believe or teach this and in fact never even read Augustine until around the 14th century (only the west). John Chrysostom's theology was accepted everywhere else. Secondly, this teaching is totally absent for the first 300 years of the church. Before Augustine there were no Calvinists in Christianity. None of those taught by the Apostles taught this that we can see, nor did any that they had discipled.
Surely the Apostles would have clarified this. If you do a little research you will find Augustine's revulsion for the flesh comes from his previous pre-Christian philosophical indoctrination.

The Augustinian view takes one extreme and emphasizes it to the exclusion of over 50 scriptures that teach otherwise. The truth includes all the scriptures on this matter. God creates us all with free will...we choose to sin and therefore judgment unto condemnation is just. Without free will, God is responsible for sin (God forbid that we should so accuse you Lord, forgive them they have been convinced of this blasphemy) and the sinner, their temptation, their yielding to it and acting on it, and all else was God's will for them, thus even a Hitler was merely (in his program) doing God's will (the same view now held by militant Islam). Blasphemy...do not say God tempts any man for God tempts no one and neither is He the author of evil and the creator of sin.

In His name

Paul

 

[pshun2404]

In his Retractions, addressed to Valentinus and the monks of Adrumetum, Augustine wrote (these are only segments)

Chapter 1

With reference to those persons who so preach and defend man's free will, as boldly to deny, and endeavor to do away with, the grace of God which calls us to Him (like Pelagius), and delivers us from our evil deserts, and by which we obtain the good deserts which lead to everlasting life: we have already said a good deal in discussion, and committed it to writing, so far as the Lord has vouchsafed to enable us.

But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended (like the Calvinists), I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love…(parenthesis mine)

Chapter 2

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance, as the Lord says concerning the Jews in the gospel: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin…

Chapter 3
There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God (saying all they do or did is God’s will). The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such as wish to find an excuse for themselves from God Himself: The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart (we see this in militant Islam where even if they kill and torture or rape they say it was the will of Allah). Proverbs 19:3 And in the book of Ecclesiasticus we read: Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man… The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will….

Chapter 4
What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means the happy man, of whom the Psalmist says that his will has been the law of the Lord? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God?

Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, Be not overcome of evil, Romans 12:1 and others of similar import, such as, Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding; and, Reject not the counsels of your mother; Proverbs 1:8 and, Be not wise in your own conceit; Proverbs 3:7 and, Despise not the chastening of the Lord; Proverbs 3:11 and, Forget not my law; Proverbs 3:1 and, Forbear not to do good to the poor; Proverbs 3:27 and, Devise not evil against your friend; Proverbs 3:29 and, Give no heed to a worthless woman; Proverbs 5:2 and, He is not inclined to understand how to do good; and, They refused to attend to my counsel; Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will? So, again, in the evangelical and apostolic books of the New Testament what other lesson is taught us? As when it is said, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth; Matthew 6:19 and, Fear not them which kill the body; Matthew 10:28 and, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself; Matthew 16:24 and again, Peace on earth to men of good will. Luke 2:14 So also that the Apostle Paul says: Let him do what he wills; he sins not if he marry. Nevertheless, he that stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 1 Corinthians 7:36-37 And so again, If I do this willingly, I have a reward; 1 Corinthians 9:17 while in another passage he says, Be sober and righteous, and sin not; 1 Corinthians 15:34 and again, As you have a readiness to will, so also let there be a prompt performance; 2 Corinthians 8:11 then he remarks to Timothy about the younger widows, When they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they choose to marry. So in another passage, All that will to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution; 2 Timothy 3:12 while to Timothy himself he says, Neglect not the gift that is in you. 1 Timothy 4:14 Then to Philemon he addresses this explanation: That your benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but of your own will. Servants also he advises to obey their masters with a good will. Ephesians 6:7 In strict accordance with this, James says: Do not err, my beloved brethren . . . and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect to persons; and, Do not speak evil one of another. James 4:11 So also John in his Epistle writes, Do not love the world, 1 John 2:15and other things of the same import. Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 5. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1887.)

 

[patricius79]

In this writing, St. Augustine speaks of predestination in exactly the same terms as Thomas Aquinas and later John Calvin.

Before the foundation of the world God predestines some to salvation and others to reprobation. Our free will has absolutely nothing to do with it.

On the Predestination of the Saints

Augustine and Aquinas, yes.

Calvin, no.

Calvin taught that God actively wills our sin and that we have no free will.

Augustine and Aquinas--while emphasizing Catholic teaching that we are saved "purely by grace" (Catechism of the Catholic Church--also affirmed free will.

 

[pshun2404]

Augustine and Aquinas, yes.

Calvin, no.

Calvin taught that God actively wills our sin and that we have no free will.

Augustine and Aquinas--while emphasizing Catholic teaching that we are saved "purely by grace" (Catechism of the Catholic Church--also affirmed free will.

Amen!

 

[Unix]

I could buy a patristic anthology. Would it be worth $99 to get it in the Logos Bible Study Software? It mostly treats the fathers only briefly, but it does cover both the Western and Eastern Churches. (Some of the content actually consists of bibliography, I don't have use for that but it shows that it's a scholarly work.) It's in 4 volumes and I have the first volume as printed matter.
The selections in it are mostly based on how the Fathers treat prayer and worship.

 

[pshun2404]

In this writing, St. Augustine speaks of predestination in exactly the same terms as Thomas Aquinas and later John Calvin.

Before the foundation of the world God predestines some to salvation and others to reprobation. Our free will has absolutely nothing to do with it.

On the Predestination of the Saints

Not quite...one has to read all that Augustine said...read also this...

Extract from Augustine's Retractions (in Grace and Free Will, Book II):
Chapter 1 [I.]— The Occasion and Argument of This Work.
With reference to those persons who so preach and defend man's free will, as boldly to deny, and endeavor to do away with, the grace of God which calls us to Him, and delivers us from our evil deserts, and by which we obtain the good deserts which lead to everlasting life: we have already said a good deal in discussion, and committed it to writing, so far as the Lord has vouchsafed to enable us (these are the Pelagian types previously refuted).

But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love (the following is to refute those who misinterpret his work that today we would call Calvinists).

For it has been told me concerning you, brethren, by some members of your brotherhood who have visited us, and are the bearers of this communication of ours to you, that there are dissensions among you on this subject. This, then, being the case, dearly beloved, that you be not disturbed by the obscurity of this question, I counsel you first to thank God for such things as you understand; but as for all which is beyond the reach of your mind, pray for understanding from the Lord, observing, at the same time peace and love among yourselves; and until He Himself lead you to perceive what at present is beyond your comprehension, walk firmly on the ground of which you are sure. This is the advice of the Apostle Paul, who, after saying that he was not yet perfect, Philippians 3:12 a little later adds, Let us, therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded, Philippians 3:15 — meaning perfect to a certain extent, but not having attained to a perfection sufficient for us; and then immediately adds, And if, in any thing, you be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereunto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule. Philippians 3:16For by walking in what we have attained, we shall be able to advance to what we have not yet attained—God revealing it to us if in anything we are otherwise minded—provided we do not give up what He has already revealed.

Chapter 2 [II.]— He Proves the Existence of Free Will in Man from the Precepts Addressed to Him by God.
Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance, as the Lord says concerning the Jews in the gospel: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. John 15:22 Of what sin does He speak but of that great one which He foreknew (not caused), while speaking thus, that they would make their own— that is, the death they were going to inflict upon Him? For they did not have no sin before Christ came to them in the flesh. The apostle also says: The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold back the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him are from the creation of the world clearly seen— being understood by the things that are made— even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are inexcusable. Romans 1:18-20 In what sense does he pronounce them to be inexcusable, except with reference to such excuse as human pride is apt to allege in such words as, If I had only known, I would have done it; did I not fail to do it because I was ignorant of it? or, I would do it if I knew how; but I do not know, therefore I do not do it? All such excuse is removed from them when the precept is given them, or the knowledge is made manifest to them how to avoid sin.

Chapter 3.— Sinners are Convicted When Attempting to Excuse Themselves by Blaming God, Because They Have Free Will (God does make them to sin the sins they sin, neither does He make them reprobate except as a result of their rejection of His prevenient grace).

There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God (they claim it is all God’s will). The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such as wish to find an excuse for themselves from God Himself: The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart. Proverbs 19:3 And in the book of Ecclesiasticus we read: Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man. The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will. Before man is life and death, and whichsoever pleases him shall be given to him. Observe how very plainly is set before our view the free choice of the human will.

Chapter 4.— The Divine Commands Which are Most Suited to the Will Itself Illustrate Its Freedom.
What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means the happy man, of whom the Psalmist says that his will has been the law of the Lord? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God? Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, Be not overcome of evil, Romans 12:1 and others of similar import, such as, Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding; and, Reject not the counsels of your mother; Proverbs 1:8 and, Be not wise in your own conceit; Proverbs 3:7 and, Despise not the chastening of the Lord; Proverbs 3:11 and, Forget not my law; Proverbs 3:1 and, Forbear not to do good to the poor; Proverbs 3:27 and, Devise not evil against your friend; Proverbs 3:29 and, Give no heed to a worthless woman; Proverbs 5:2 and, He is not inclined to understand how to do good; and, They refused to attend to my counsel; Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will? So, again, in the evangelical and apostolic books of the New Testament what other lesson is taught us? As when it is said, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth; Matthew 6:19 and, Fear not them which kill the body; Matthew 10:28 and, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself; Matthew 16:24 and again, Peace on earth to men of good will. Luke 2:14 So also that the Apostle Paul says: Let him do what he wills; he sins not if he marry. Nevertheless, he that stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so decreed in his heart that he will keep hisvirgin, does well. 1 Corinthians 7:36-37 And so again, If I do this willingly, I have a reward; 1 Corinthians 9:17 while in another passage he says, Be sober and righteous, and sin not; 1 Corinthians 15:34 and again, As you have a readiness to will, so also let there be a prompt performance; 2 Corinthians 8:11 then he remarks to Timothy about the younger widows, When they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they choose to marry. So in another passage, All that will to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution; 2 Timothy 3:12 while to Timothy himself he says, Neglect not the gift that is in you. 1 Timothy 4:14 Then to Philemon he addresses this explanation: That your benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but of your own will. Servants also he advises to obey their masters with a good will. Ephesians 6:7 In strict accordance with this, James says: Do not err, my beloved brethren . . . and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect to persons; and, Do not speak evil one of another. James 4:11 So also John in his Epistle writes, Do not love the world, 1 John 2:15and other things of the same import. Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27…

Chapter 7.— Grace is Necessary Along with Free Will to Lead a Good Life.
Therefore, my dearly beloved, as we have now proved by our former testimonies from Holy Scripture that there is in man a free determination of will for living rightly and acting rightly; so now let us see what are the divine testimonies concerning the grace of God, without which we are not able to do any good thing.

Chapter 10 [V.]— Free Will and God's Grace are Simultaneously Commended.
When God says, Turn ye unto me, and I will turn unto you, Zechariah 1:3 one of these clauses— that which invites our return to God— evidently belongs to our will; while the other, which promises His return to us, belongs to His grace (see how Grace which precedes from God must be cooperated with according to our own free volitional choice but not merited or earned by it?)
Chapter 18.— Faith Without Good Works is Not Sufficient for Salvation.

Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle's statement: We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law, Romans 3:28 have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. Impossible is it that such a character should be deemed a vessel of election by the apostle, who, after declaring that in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, Galatians 5:6 adds at once, but faith which works by love. It is such faith which severs God's faithful from unclean demons—for even these believe and tremble, James 2:19 as theApostle James says; but they do not do well. Therefore they possess not the faith by which the just man lives—the faith which works by love in such wise, that God recompenses it according to its works with eternal life. But inasmuch as we have even our good works appointed from God, from whom likewise comes our faith and our love, therefore the selfsame great teacher of the Gentiles has designated eternal life itself as His gracious gift. Romans 6:23

(parentheses mine)

Brother Paul

 

[pshun2404]

Yes I posted this again because we lose sight of the two extremes taken by those who hold a Pelagian view and those who adhere to a pure Calvinism (double predestination), both of which are incorrect and contrary to the the counsel of the word if taken all together. Predestination is by foreknowledge and Grace, though first, requires a man respond toward God and he is according to the Bible capable when the spirit convicts through the word...though depraved and corrupted by the fall. Thus Total Depravity (absolute incapability) is not a true Christian, nor is it a Biblical, doctrine (though based on about half the scriptures addressing such a topic).

Hope this helps...for no one believed in this double predestination until maybe Aquinas, but surely through Calvin (both teaching many, many, centuries after Christ). Calvin's misrepresentation of Augustine's intent (when against Pelagius) has caused a 500 year theological war as verified by the Soteriology section of this forum, causing many more splinters and schisms than it is worth (I was a Calvinist defending this view for ten years)...thank God I can now read ALL the word for what it says and not for what I was taught it meant.

In His love

Brother Paul

 

[SwordFall]

Calvin rationalized double predestination, had good amounts of scripture as consolidation, and with points that intricately work with each other.
But for a long time, I just couldn't help but feel there was something simply wrong with it, well beyond the matter of it disagreeing with my beliefs. However, I couldn't put my finger on it until one day, it just came to me:

If we are predestined to salvation or damnation, through a course and nature which was designed by God, then we are incapable of sinning because God Himself is perfect, and all that He does under the paradigm of double predestination would have to result in flawless grace.
That is to say, it should in fact be impossible for us to sin because we are always serving a perfect will.

 

[pshun2404]

Calvin rationalized double predestination, had good amounts of scripture as consolidation, and with points that intricately work with each other.
But for a long time, I just couldn't help but feel there was something simply wrong with it, well beyond the matter of it disagreeing with my beliefs. However, I couldn't put my finger on it until one day, it just came to me:

If we are predestined to salvation or damnation, through a course and nature which was designed by God, then we are incapable of sinning because God Himself is perfect, and all that He does under the paradigm of double predestination would have to result in flawless grace.
That is to say, it should in fact be impossible for us to sin because we are always serving a perfect will.

Correct, and if we do sin then even our sin was His will (it was the will of God) thus even the atrocities of an Adolf Hitler were merely Adolf doing God's perfect will for his life (God forbid) and when a man is tempted it was God who made Him to be tempted in just that way, made the tempter to tempt him, and it was His will for him to tempt the tempted...but the Bible says "God tempts no man"...both cannot be correct...after the Synod of Dordt the reformed adopted a compromised Calvinism admitting a freedom or will only insisting in this freedom man can only choose sin because he is born spiritually dead...