Spurgeon Preached Old Earth Creationism

[driewerf]

Nope, but I don’t think for one minute that mainstream scientists are going to remotely accept something that would prove them DAs… do you?

But somehow you know that what geologists are putting forward is wrong. So you know better geology than they.
So how do you know the 'true results' of saying the age of the Deccan Traps?

 

[Astrid]

Nope, if you truly believe something you're not falsifying.

Intentional or unintentional, any actual bias
that affects to outcome of research is intellectual
dishonesty.
You repeat this charge, that science ignores
evidence for Genesis because of bias.

You need to provide evidence of this, or
it's just words claiming something not
impossible, but of the most extreme
improbability.

Do you believe it's impossible that "flood"
is just a story?

It might be beneficial for you to research in a different way than you normally do.

That's vague enough.
Do you apply that advice to yourself?

Tell me where / how I should look that I have not.

 

[inquiring mind]

But somehow you know that what geologists are putting forward is wrong. So you know better geology than they.
So how do you know the 'true results' of saying the age of the Deccan Traps?

How do you? Surely, not by comparing with recent powder-puff volcanoes (Mt. St. Helens is very small compared to these babies, and watch a documentary about people who witnessed it). The volume of lava flow and debris in the eruptions you mention were far too great to be analyzed with anything observed in the recent past. These things would have happened fast, like mega hydrogen bombs fast. Now consider the energy released in the colossal eruptions of the flood… off the chart, ripped the world apart! And, you propose a measurement when you can’t tell the difference between slow-and-gradual and instantaneous explosions.

 

[inquiring mind]

That's vague enough.
Do you apply that advice to yourself?

I have to.

Tell me where / how I should look that I have not.

Look for the possibility of 'rapid' results instead of 'slow and gradual.'

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hello PrincetonGuy, I've begun looking into this, and this is what I've found (so far) concerning Spurgeon's beliefs.

Old Earth, yes.​

Evolution, of any kind/of any creature, no.​

I have found his views on this topic to be interesting (for Spurgeon anyway) since they seem to be lacking in both consistency and thoroughness. There appears to be much more to consider however (which I hope will change my opinion .. concerning consistency/thoroughness), and if/when I find more, I will report back about it (if I think that it's worth sharing).

Thank you for broaching this topic

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - here are just a couple of short excepts from Spurgeon's writings concerning "evolution". A student once asked Mr. Spurgeon, “Are we justified in receiving Mr. Darwin’s or any other theory of evolution?” Spurgeon's answer (in small part) was:

Does Revelation teach us evolution? It never has struck me, and it does not strike now, that the theory of evolution can, by any process of argument, be reconciled with the inspired record of the Creation. You remember how it is distinctly stated, again and again, that the Lord made each creature “after its kind.” ​

​

There are abundant evidences that one creature inclines towards another in certain respects, for all are bound together in a wondrous way which indicates that they are all the product of God’s creative will; but what the advocates of evolution appear to forget is, that there is nowhere to be discovered an actual chain of growth from one creature to another.​

.

Your last paragraph is very interesting.
Even scientists today are finding a difficulty with evolution (at least some of them) precisely because the fossil record does not show
mutation from one creature to another.
Darwin himself foresaw a problem with this.
Example: The Cambrian explosion.
Where did all those fossils come from?
He had no answer.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Olives?

Genesis 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

How exactly were the olive trees still standing after being covered with 5 miles of water for a year, and then covered with 2 miles of sediments when God did the cleanup you postulate? I'm not a botanist, but I guess that would be a little tough on olive trees, yes?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Oh yeah, the millions and millions of years answer is the only possibility.

Per the OP, even the famous 19th century Baptist preacher, Charles Spurgeon, knew those fossils were very old. People knew this even when all they had was the crude tools of the 19th century.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Why does science ignore the possibility of violent eruptions and cooling during a catastrophic flood causing the formation of polar ice?

Have you even checked? A simple check would have revealed that scientists knew of creationist claims for decades and provided detailed responses.

By illustration, suppose you had spent thousands of hours getting a master's degree in some subject, and somebody who knew absolutely nothing about you came along and said you never studied that field. Would you not find that an outrageous claim? When people have spent many thousands of hours studying something, and you don't even bother to check if they have, but declare authoritatively declare they have not, that ruins your credibility.

Just as an example, there was an entire journal specifically dedicated to studying Creationist claims such as flood geology-- Creation/Evolution Journal | National Center for Science Education .There are numerous other books and papers in the literature. Would it be too much to ask you to check if it is there before you say it is not there?

For instance, if you go to that site, you are just a few clicks away from reading this:
The Fatal Flaws of Flood Geology | National Center for Science Education .

 

[AV1611VET]

But somehow you know that what geologists are putting forward is wrong.

Speaking for myself, you'll notice that I don't dispute what geologists are looking at.

If they say they see A then B then C then D then ETC three miles down, I don't dispute it.

What I disagree with though, are their conclusions.

That is, how those layers got there.

Some say it was a jillion years of natural process that layered them, while others say it was hydrological sorting that layered them.

I don't agree with either.

 

[Astrid]

I have to.

Look for the possibility of 'rapid' results instead of 'slow and gradual.'

Having done a dual major, biology / geology I
have some familiarity with the topics here.

And with how to do research.

One is not to go looking for any pre selected
conclusion.
You go out and get the data, and then analyze it.

Geological processes occur at all different speeds.
It's not a "catastrophism v gradualism" thing,
one or the other. You get earthquakes, volcanic
explosions, huge floods, sure. Other things like
growth of stalactites would be very boring to watch.

There a multitude of ways of determining the rates
of processes.

How would you go about determining if the traps
referred to were formed in days or thousands of
years,

It's well established that the Atlantic Ocean has
not always been there, thatvtyecAmericas were
one with Europe and Asia.

How can you tell how long it took?

 

[AV1611VET]

How exactly were the olive trees still standing after being covered with 5 miles of water for a year, and then covered with 2 miles of sediments when God did the cleanup you postulate? I'm not a botanist, but I guess that would be a little tough on olive trees, yes?

Simple.

God told Noah to replenish the earth.

How was Noah to do that, if the earth was one large landfill?

Thus God must have terraformed the earth back to its pristine condition.

As evidenced by the dove first bringing back an olive leaf then, one week later, not coming back at all.

And before you say anything, keep in mind that God took a ball of water one day, and six days later that ball of water was one tropical paradise, teaming with plant and animal life, including two humans.

If He did it in 4004 BC, He can certainly do it again in 2347 BC.

 

[inquiring mind]

Speaking for myself, you'll notice that I don't dispute what geologists are looking at.

If they say they see A then B then C then D then ETC three miles down, I don't dispute it.

What I disagree with though, are their conclusions.

That is, how those layers got there.

Some say it was a jillion years of natural process that layered them, while others say it was hydrological sorting that layered them.

I don't agree with either.

Good point. Sometimes I get so fixated on offering a challenge to the 'slow and gradual' with 'rapid' that I forget about 'embedded age.'

 

[Astrid]

.

Good point. Sometimes I get so fixated on offering a challenge to the 'slow and gradual' with 'rapid' that I forget about 'embedded age.'

If you are committed to last thursdayism
and flood water on Neptune, just say so
now, so you can join your pal in igcity
and not waste my time.

 

[inquiring mind]

.

If you are committed to last thursdayism
and flood water on Neptune, just say so
now, so you can join your pal in igcity
and not waste my time.

Well, my non-linear time wild card and 'slow & gradual' challenges are not accepted very well either.

 

[Frank Robert]

One scenario is that there were massive floating mats of vegetation where plants could grow. As the water subsided, the mats came to rest on the earth and now you have flora as well as flora. Noah's family had to eat. No doubt they took plenty of seed for crops with them in the ark. There was fodder for the non-carnivorous animals. And yes, animals do eat other animals. They had a year and a month to breed. Many animals produce large litters. There would have been enough food for the very small population of animals.

DNA would have taken up much less space with the added bonus of no animal feed stock needed and no cleanup of animal droppings needed

 

[Astrid]

Well, my non-linear time wild card and 'slow & gradual' challenges are not accepted very well either.

Present an actual challenge with
some data!
A few years ago I was in Washington state,
driving along the C9lumbia River gorge.
There was a huge basalt flow in that area.

The river cuts through and gives a good
cross section of hudreds of feet.

You can see it's not all from one event
because there's obvious layers, as from
soil forming between flows.
That does take a while.

Columbia River basalts erupted faster than thought

www.earthmagazine.org

Now, if you know of data showing this
is something that can happen in a flood
and one big flow of lava, please say so.

You did not say if you are committed to
last thursdayism. Please clarify.

 

[Astrid]

DNA would have taken up much less space with the added bonus of no animal feed stock needed and no cleanup of animal droppings needed

Or just disappear all the badguys and spare the
baby fawns etc.

 

[AV1611VET]

Good point. Sometimes I get so fixated on offering a challenge to the 'slow and gradual' with 'rapid' that I forget about 'embedded age.'

That's your discerning heart at work!

 

[AV1611VET]

If you are committed to last thursdayism and flood water on Neptune, just say so now, so you can join your pal in igcity
and not waste my time.

What have you got against Neptune?

 

[AV1611VET]

You did not say if you are committed to last thursdayism. Please clarify.

If you're going to consign him to "igcity" because of his beliefs, just do it and stop whining about it.

Academians have consigned everything from the Ten Commandments to the Bible itself to "igcity," so don't let a belief in LT stop you.