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So purely a difference of scale? Is there any Actual barrier that makes advanced math less reliable than, say, high school algebra?The difference is as big as man going to the moon vs man going to the next galaxy.
And what happens when the math does not add up with the current theory? They just add in fudge factors like inflation, dark matter and dark energy. (of course "some guys" don't like the idea of involving the tooth fairy more than once in order to save a theory from the data. You are only suppose to use the tooth fairy once.)
Boy, don't we wish the math was as simple as 5+3=8.
Your post seem to prove Frank Fleming point.
That is not the point I am making. Even the simple system that a jelly fish has needs all its components in place and working to function properly. There are neurons and wires and fluids and chemicals and probably many other ingredients needed to operate those systems and need to be in place as well. It is a network of things that are in place to make it all work. If any are missing then it wont work and it wont function in the first place. The human nervous system need a brain to operate and they need other systems which are connected to them so that it all can operate. You cant make that system bit by bit because there are things need at the same time to be there.You said that a nervous system had to have a brain and a spinal cord. You are wrong.
There are systems within systems with systems. The brain is a highly complex system that allows the centralized nervous systems to do incredible things and allows us to have abstract thinking which a jelly fish cannot do. There maybe aspects of the simple nervous system that can operate on their own just like an electric pulse that can trigger a movement. But that in itself is a system and that system is within another complex system all needing all their parts to be there functioning at the same time and dependent on each other. It either all came at once or it didn't work. Its like the reproductive system I was referring to earlier.
[FONT="]Think of the amazing intricacy of the male reproductive system coming about by time, chance and random mutation. It would need to be fully functional all along the evolutionary timeline so that reproduction could continue. And remember this highly unlikely progression would be pointless unless the female reproductive system had randomly evolved in perfect sync to compliment the developing male system so they both worked in harmony over the millions of years of evolutionary refinement! Of course, this logic applies to all the other species on earth as well.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Human reproduction is made possible by an incredible system of systems.
[/FONT]
* Asexual to sexual reproduction. The evolution from asexual to sexual is not a favorite topic of discussion in most evolutionary circles, because no matter how many theories evolutionists conjure up (and there are several), they still must surmount the enormous hurdle of explaining the origin of the first fully functional female and the first fully functional male necessary to begin the process.
* Female egg release system Woman is born with a limited number of eggs and generally only releases one egg per cycle.
* Sperm development temperature. Sperm only develop in temperatures 3 – 5 degrees Fahrenheit lower than the body.
* Sperm and egg have only 23 single chromosomes.Unlike every cell of the human body, which have 46 chromosomes (in 23 pairs), these cells have only 23 (not in pairs).
* Sperm determines whether it is a girl or a boy.
* Man being able to pass sperm out of his body.
* Sperm must be able to swim.
* Cervical mucus for sperm transport.
* sperm is alkaline ,The normal environment of the vagina is a hostile one for sperm, as it is very acidic and patrolled by immune cells. The seminal plasma attempts to compensate for this hostile environment.
* Sperm needs to find the egg. Cells surrounding the egg release progesterone as a “chemoattractant” that “points the sperm the way to the egg”.
* Sperm has correct enzyme on head that can penetrate egg wall. The first sperm that reaches the egg releases a special enzyme to eat through the outer layer (zona pellucid) of the egg.There are over 75,000 known enzymes in nature. Lucky that the sperm has the right one!1 75000.
* Egg outer wall hardens to prevent other sperm fertilizing the same egg. Polyspermy (more than one sperm entering the egg) is almost always fatal for the egg. To prevent this, several changes to the egg’s cell membranes renders them impenetrable shortly after the first sperm enters the egg.
* Sperm and egg must fuse so that their nuclei become one.The nucleus of the sperm fuses with the nucleus of the egg, uniting both genetic materials together to form a brand new individual.
* Fertilized egg must attach to the uterus wall.
* The amazing placenta The placenta is an extremely complex piece of biological equipment.
* Baby's first breadth.
* Mother produces milk Amazingly, a mother’s breast milk contains everything that her baby needs including: vitamins, mineral, digestive enzymes, hormones and antibodies that help the baby fight infections.
Can evolution account for this system of systems? The human reproductive system is a highly advanced process which cannot have come about gradually. Either the sperm can follow the female hormones to the egg or they cannot. Either the sperm can penetrate the egg wall or it cannot.
If you believe that all these parts of the system can come into being at the same time by chance then you are looking at a virtually impossible odds of 1 in 2.25 sextillion and that is just with a 1 in 10 for most parts of the process! 1 2250000000000000000000
[FONT="]http://goddidit.org/human-reproduction/[/FONT]
[FONT="]Think of the amazing intricacy of the male reproductive system coming about by time, chance and random mutation. It would need to be fully functional all along the evolutionary timeline so that reproduction could continue. And remember this highly unlikely progression would be pointless unless the female reproductive system had randomly evolved in perfect sync to compliment the developing male system so they both worked in harmony over the millions of years of evolutionary refinement! Of course, this logic applies to all the other species on earth as well.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Human reproduction is made possible by an incredible system of systems.
[/FONT]
* Asexual to sexual reproduction. The evolution from asexual to sexual is not a favorite topic of discussion in most evolutionary circles, because no matter how many theories evolutionists conjure up (and there are several), they still must surmount the enormous hurdle of explaining the origin of the first fully functional female and the first fully functional male necessary to begin the process.
* Female egg release system Woman is born with a limited number of eggs and generally only releases one egg per cycle.
* Sperm development temperature. Sperm only develop in temperatures 3 5 degrees Fahrenheit lower than the body.
* Sperm and egg have only 23 single chromosomes.Unlike every cell of the human body, which have 46 chromosomes (in 23 pairs), these cells have only 23 (not in pairs).
* Sperm determines whether it is a girl or a boy.
* Man being able to pass sperm out of his body.
* Sperm must be able to swim.
* Cervical mucus for sperm transport.
* sperm is alkaline ,The normal environment of the vagina is a hostile one for sperm, as it is very acidic and patrolled by immune cells. The seminal plasma attempts to compensate for this hostile environment.
* Sperm needs to find the egg. Cells surrounding the egg release progesterone as a chemoattractant that points the sperm the way to the egg.
* Sperm has correct enzyme on head that can penetrate egg wall. The first sperm that reaches the egg releases a special enzyme to eat through the outer layer (zona pellucid) of the egg.There are over 75,000 known enzymes in nature. Lucky that the sperm has the right one!1 75000.
* Egg outer wall hardens to prevent other sperm fertilizing the same egg. Polyspermy (more than one sperm entering the egg) is almost always fatal for the egg. To prevent this, several changes to the eggs cell membranes renders them impenetrable shortly after the first sperm enters the egg.
* Sperm and egg must fuse so that their nuclei become one.The nucleus of the sperm fuses with the nucleus of the egg, uniting both genetic materials together to form a brand new individual.
* Fertilized egg must attach to the uterus wall.
* The amazing placenta The placenta is an extremely complex piece of biological equipment.
* Baby's first breadth.
* Mother produces milk Amazingly, a mothers breast milk contains everything that her baby needs including: vitamins, mineral, digestive enzymes, hormones and antibodies that help the baby fight infections.
Can evolution account for this system of systems?
Can evolution account for this system of systems?
Science(Fiction) writers have the easiest job in the world.
It's called armchair quarterbacking. They just compile any
facts they choose to support, then write up a fictional story
around the facts and claim it's non-fiction. Then, when new
facts come to light, they shrug and say "Oh yes, we learn new
things all the time. Then the wad up the old paper and write a
new one about the latest idea that popped into their heads.
Like any good science fiction, it has some basis in fact,
As one ID pointed out a tornado putting a house together wouldn't violate the second law of thermodynamics since the tornado would still draw it's energy from the sun. But we know a tornado doesn't put a house together even though it draws it's energy from the sun because of the law of probability. The heart of the laws of thermodynamics is about probability. If it's wasn't for earth protection ( plasma and magnetic shield) the sun would easily destroy physical life on this planet.
That is not the point I am making. Even the simple system that a jelly fish has needs all its components in place and working to function properly.
As one ID pointed out a tornado putting a house together wouldn't violate the second law of thermodynamics since the tornado would still draw it's energy from the sun.
The heart of the laws of thermodynamics is about probability. If it's wasn't for earth protection ( plasma and magnetic shield) the sun would easily destroy physical life on this planet.
As one ID pointed out a tornado putting a house together wouldn't violate the second law of thermodynamics since the tornado would still draw it's energy from the sun. But we know a tornado doesn't put a house together even though it draws it's energy from the sun because of the law of probability. The heart of the laws of thermodynamics is about probability. If it's wasn't for earth protection ( plasma and magnetic shield) the sun would easily destroy physical life on this planet.
Lotteries are designed to have winners. Are you suggest the universe is designed to have winners also?Good thing that Earth and Sol aren't the only planet and star in the Universe then.
If you play the lottery 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times the odds of winning improve.
Of course I don't think that. Self-replicating cell is a lot more complex than any man-made house or machine.If you think biological reproduction is anything like a tornado putting a house together, then you need to retake 3rd grade biology.
As sponges show, this isn't true either. They are multicellular organisms that function just fine without a neural net.
You keep claiming that such and such is required, and yet I can find species without them. You are just flat wrong.
So doesn't the sponge have complex systems within systems that need to have many parts present together at once to work. Like the flagellum within the collar cells.
Sponges are covered with tiny pores on the outside called ostia (2). Ostia lead to an internal system of canals which leads to one or more larger holes called oscula, which are the openings to the out side. Ostia are surrounded by donut shaped cells called porocytes. The chambers within the canals are lined up with cells called choanocytes, or collar cells. The collar cells consist a sticky funnel shaped collar and a hair-like whip called a flagellum. The collar cells beat their flagella back and forth to force the water through the sponge. The water brings in nutrients and oxygen and takes out the carbon dioxide.
So not only is there a complex system for the sponge to process its nutrients there are complex systems within that system that hep it all work together. Something that is hard to believe all formed bit by bit and fell into place by a random and chance process that needs to have meaningful and useful bits and pieces that will be kept even if they are only a small piece of something bigger. Even the flagellum itself is complex and has many working parts with seals and valves and motors that need to be all there working together.
Life of a Sponge
[serious];65499831 said:Looking at this exchange from the outside, it looks like parts are getting stripped off your proposal for irreducibly complex systems a you just keep sliding one step back and claiming that new example is irreducibly complex.
There is the modern eye, which was stripped back to a light sensitive patch on a nerve. Jelly fish cut out the nerve, sponges cut out organ systems more generally, slime molds bridge single and multicellular life, even their level of cooperation can be stripped back to bio films, that flagellum you mentioned is a variation of a type III transport system.
In general, you seem to be sliding from an argument of specific systems being irreducibly complex to a more general statement of "things need all the parts that they need to live" which, well true I suppose, is unhelpful to your point. Irreducible complexity is not grounded in the idea that somethings are needed for a specific creature to live, but in the idea that those things can't have developed via small gradual changes. If we've tracked parts that can be stripped out from a modern eye all the way back to a flagellum, your argument is already sunk.
What the "tornado in junkyard" analogy fails to take into account is the selective and iterative aspect of evolution. Yes, we can all agree that no tornado blowing through a junkyard will build a 747. But evolutionary theory doesn't suggest it would. A more apt analogy would be a million tornados blowing through a junk yard, and preserving the most 747 like arrangement of junk every time, and adding to it with every tornado. Assuming that 747 body plan best meets the evolutionary pressures of the junkyard, you'd have a 747 in no time.Lotteries are designed to have winners. Are you suggest the universe is designed to have winners also?
Of course I don't think that. Self-replicating cell is a lot more complex than any man-made house or machine.
What the "tornado in junkyard" analogy fails to take into account is the selective and iterative aspect of evolution. Yes, we can all agree that no tornado blowing through a junkyard will build a 747. But evolutionary theory doesn't suggest it would. A more apt analogy would be a million tornados blowing through a junk yard, and preserving the most 747 like arrangement of junk every time, and adding to it with every tornado. Assuming that 747 body plan best meets the evolutionary pressures of the junkyard, you'd have a 747 in no time.
So where does God come in. If thats the case with evolution and the big bang started the universe then Gods part was what. In the beginning God created some chemicals and a few particles and he seen that it was good and he rested saying, gee that was hard work. You may as well not even bother with God.
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