Split brain patients and belief in god

[JGL53]

I would be interested in the christian viewpoint, or apologetics, for this phenomenon identified by prominent brain researcher V.S. Ramachandran - i.e., both belief and disbelief existing in the same person at the same time, and whether half a person can go to heaven and the other half to hell - or not. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DCSJdhy3-0

 

[MethodMan]

Does he have two souls?

Remember, the heart is judged, not the body.

 

[Romans 13:3]

While I am not a professional theologian, I don't see this as a big issue. Without getting into what part of the brain does what, the fact remains that God knows what the 'heart' of the person holds. Furthermore, we do not believe that God holds disease against a person. Obviously, someone requiring brain surgery has a serious medical issues. If a person has had control of their faculties taken away by what ever cause, save maybe personal choices made such as drug abuse, then God must surely know the limits of their understanding.

This is an example of science thinking they could drive theology, but in fact it is nearly a non-issue.

Respectfully,

Don

 

[heron]

I agree.

Logic is a series of responses to input, with attempts to organize information. Each part of the brain approaches this differently, and
each part needs the other part to process a situation properly.

In this split situation, each side of the brain seems to be doing it job,
but too independently of the other parts -- and also lacking information and records of past events that were stored in opposite sides of the brain. So the flow of logic from synapse to synapse was broken; what led someone to believe was broken.

It is very humbling for us to admit that our thoughts are held together by water, chemical compounds and minerals. But that is the way God made our bodies. It is also humbling for us to admit that our invitation to heaven was not earned by our goodness, but by God's generosity. He wants us there.

 

[JGL53]

I appreciate the input so far from each of you, but I still remain fairly confused as to the actual proper christian interpretation of whether the split-brain person's individual soul is in jeopardy - or not.

The use of the word "heart" by a couple of people - I assume you are speaking metaphorically? Surely you don't believe the "soul" actually resides in the human heart - as opposed to the brain?

The point still remains - we have one person - one body, one brain, if you will - that there exists a certain person (brain) wherein both atheism and theism exist. The split-brain person is usually as sane as anyone - there is no indication they are in fact schizophrenic, psychotic, sociopathic, narcissistic, or anything similar. Most split-brain patients underwent this horrific operation to cure out-of-control and otherwise incurable epilepsy. That is all (and, of course, epileptics are not mental cases). And MPD - multiple personality disorder - is an entirely different phenomenon and question.

It is just that the brain halves in the one body seem to have their own individual and personal viewpoint and understanding of reality. One side believes in god. There's no indication that side is crazy. The other side does not believe in god - again, no indication that that side suffers from any form of insanity.

The question remains - will side one (side one’s half soul) go to heaven upon death, possibly - i.e., is it at least still in the ball game - and will the other half soul (the atheist side) be destined to eternal pain in hell? If a person only has "one soul", then how does one explain this phenomenon - theologically?

So far, guys, its been "nice try but no cigar". This conundrum remains as a serious question with serious theological ramifications. Is there a serious (theologically based) answer?

 

[Romans 13:3]

Let me be as clear as possible. I know of no doctrine of a 'half soul.' This person, everything else being equal, will be as eligible for heaven as any person that believes in the Lord. I suspect the other 'half' gets a pass.

Christians believe that Jesus died for our sins. I believe that God will hear the side that acknowledges Him and not be concerned with the half that doesn't. IMO

 

[heron]

I still remain fairly confused as to the actual proper christian interpretation of whether the split-brain person's individual soul is in jeopardy - or not.

I don't think the Bible authors were splitting brains for the purpose of testing.

God counts the hairs on our heads. There is no official policy, but I can't imagine any mainstream Christian defending the two-person option.

When people speak of soul or heart, they are usually talking about the essense of the person -- you know that. But think about near-death experiences you have heard of. The spirit leaves the body, and is conscious apart from the body.

that there exists a certain person (brain) wherein both atheism and theism exist.

The video showed such a small segment of that research, it was difficult to tell if the speaker was just presenting a potential dilemma, or if he really believed he had two minds in front of him. It sounded to me like he was just tossing the idea around.

Most brain studies I have seen in the past would never have considered half a brain to support a complete life.

If you ask a given person what they think about God, they will give different answers depending on the context of the situation. Speaking to another Christian, a devout believer might say "I am so frustrated... I feel like God is so far away" -- which confides an emotional reaction with hopes of finding an explanation, but does not deny the faith.

Similarly, an agnostic might be asked if they would consider a higher power had influence in the world, and they might readily say yes. But their lives are not devoted as believers.

 

[calidog]

The use of the word "heart" by a couple of people - I assume you are speaking metaphorically? Surely you don't believe the "soul" actually resides in the human heart - as opposed to the brain?

Actually there seems to be a distinction between all:


Luk 10:27 And answering, he said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength," and with all your mind, and "your neighbor as yourself."


The heart is as follows:

G2588
καρδία
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).

The mind:

G1271
διάνοια
dianoia
dee-an'-oy-ah
From G1223 and G3563; deep thought, properly the faculty (mind or its disposition), by implication its exercise: - imagination, mind, understanding.

 

[JGL53]

Let me be as clear as possible. I know of no doctrine of a 'half soul.' This person, everything else being equal, will be as eligible for heaven as any person that believes in the Lord. I suspect the other 'half' gets a pass.

Christians believe that Jesus died for our sins. I believe that God will hear the side that acknowledges Him and not be concerned with the half that doesn't. IMO

Well, I apologize, but I have read through the above post four times now, and I can make absolutely no sense of it whatsoever. I am totally flummoxed at even envisioning a proper hermeneutics that could be used to tease out any meaning in order to respond with further questions. Don, it is as if you had hit me over the head repeatedly with a club labeled "cognitive dissonance".

So - in your case, we can just put this whole issue into the same basket with transubstantiation of the Host - i.e., a mystery that passeth all understanding, i.e., no need to question or examine it, just believe it - or not (For those that believe no proof is required, for those that disbelieve no proof is possible.).

OK - so, is there anyone else who would like to give me a proper theologically based explanation of the split-brain split-soul conundrum discovered by Dr. Ramachandran?

I have had input now from a Catholic, a Methodist, and an anonymous Christian. Are there any other Christians who could provide input here, e.g., Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Presbyterians, Church of God, Church of Christ, Church of God in Christ, African Methodist Episcopal, Episcopal, Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Mennonites, etc.?

Also, though they are non-Christians, this seems like the perfect enigma for Zoroastrians to contemplate. Any Zoroastrians out there?

 

[heron]

Please remember that this is a forum, where people are encouraged to express freely as they pass through. This is not an official source for apologetics, and makes no claims for accuracy or authoritative answers.

If you are not happy with the answers that people are offering you, go to a proper scholarly source, instead of insulting the four people who joined your discussion.

There is also an apologetics section here where these topics are discussed more in-depth. But again, you will end up with responses from whoever happens to be there, and they will still contain opinion mixed with documented statements.

You seem to be asking that we set aside all opinion, personal belief, and attempts to connect with you as a person. What you are looking for is what a book can offer. We are humans.

 

[JGL53]

I don't think the Bible authors were splitting brains for the purpose of testing.

You state the obvious, as the people who wrote the bible were ignorant of, e.g., the germ theory of disease, DNA, atomic theory, that the brain was the organ of consciousness, that the earth moves and goes around the sun, plate tectonics, E equals M times C squared, the universe is around 14 billions years old, etc., etc., etc., etc., times a thousand, in spades.

God counts the hairs on our heads. There is no official policy, but I can't imagine any mainstream Christian defending the two-person option...

Neither can I. So, continuing….

When people speak of soul or heart, they are usually talking about the essence of the person -- you know that. But think about near-death experiences you have heard of. The spirit leaves the body, and is conscious apart from the body. ..

You pinpoint the problem. A person is of two different and contradictory theological opinions – AT THE SAME TIME. Where, then is the “essence” of which you speak?

The video showed such a small segment of that research, it was difficult to tell if the speaker was just presenting a potential dilemma, or if he really believed he had two minds in front of him. It sounded to me like he was just tossing the idea around. ..

There is a longer version of this on youtube. Plus, if interested, Dr. Ramachandran wrote about this phenomenon in his book “A Brief Tour Of Human Consciousness”.

Most brain studies I have seen in the past would never have considered half a brain to support a complete life. ..

Define “full life”, please. Either “souls” exist or they do not. Either a living person has no soul or he has none. Either a person is in god’s grace – or he is not. How Christian theological beliefs (assumptions) are reconcilable with the demonstrated evidence of theological difference (difference in belief) within the brain of the individual split-brain person – that would STILL be my challenge to you.

If you ask a given person what they think about God, they will give different answers depending on the context of the situation. Speaking to another Christian, a devout believer might say "I am so frustrated... I feel like God is so far away" -- which confides an emotional reaction with hopes of finding an explanation, but does not deny the faith. ..

I accept all that. But the Christian theory is, as I understand it, that a person, at a particular point in time, is either saved or is not. He or she believes in god – either properly or not – or he does not (is, for that moment in time, an atheist). The split-brain person is one person. Under Christian theory, he is one soul (right?). At that moment in time, if he expires, where (probably, at least) does his soul go – heaven or hell – according to Christian theory?

Similarly, an agnostic might be asked if they would consider a higher power had influence in the world, and they might readily say yes. But their lives are not devoted as believers…

Nevertheless, there is no limbo regarding actual belief, as I understand Christian theory. The “agnostic”, upon death, if he disbelieves in god in that moment, is assigned to hell –but if, in that moment, he properly believes in god, then he (his immortal soul) go to heaven.

You can’t have it both ways...[/quote]

 

[JGL53]

Actually there seems to be a distinction between all:

Luk 10:27 And answering, he said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength," and with all your mind, and "your neighbor as yourself."

The heart is as follows:

G2588
καρδία
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρkar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).
The mind:
G1271
διάνοια
dianoia
dee-an'-oy-ah
From G1223 and G3563; deep thought, properly the faculty (mind or its disposition), by implication its exercise: - imagination, mind, understanding.

All of the above is granted but seems irrelevant to the original question. The split-brain person is, seemingly, of two understandings, two minds, two hearts, even two strengths and two imaginations. The question then follows - can he be of two souls? If not, then the question remains of how can the theory of one soul be properly reconciled with all the above "twos"?

 

[Romans 13:3]

How shall I teach you?

Dewey would have us in the laboratory, splitting a number of brains, both religious and non-religious, send them to the other side and see what percentage gets in, then analysis the findings in a 'learn by doing' system. Obvious problems are the unwarranted surgeries and the general one-sided nature of communication with heaven.

Post-modernist educators such as Maslow or Knowles would want you to follow your own path of discovery.

Cognitives such asBruner and Piaget would likely have you work on memory exercises after spelling out in detail the precise content for you consumption.

Behaviorist would start with a list of basic competencies or objectives, chief among these in this case would be to believe in God. Until you mastery of that first objective, learning such as this is impossible.

The thing here is we are dealing with matters of faith. My church has attempted to use logic a part of its teachings for a long time now, and I am not sure that is a good idea. To believe is different than to know.

Transubstantiation is an excellent example. I believe it because to the best of my knowledge, Jesus said it and he is not known to be a liar, at least in the circles in which I run. Do I know that the host is his body, no I don't. I also don't know that the sun will rise tomorrow but I believe it will, yes based on past experience.

To quantify belief is like catching smoke or explaining color to man born blind. We can try, we can believe in our efficacy, but we will never know.

Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus and we hold it in our hearts. Is it possible that the Hindus are right and we are wrong? Well that is something we do not know.

May the peace of the Lord Jesus Christ fill you.

Respectfully submitted, Don

 

[JGL53]

Please remember that this is a forum, where people are encouraged to express freely as they pass through. This is not an official source for apologetics, and makes no claims for accuracy or authoritative answers.

If you are not happy with the answers that people are offering you, go to a proper scholarly source, instead of insulting the four people who joined your discussion.

There is also an apologetics section here where these topics are discussed more in-depth. But again, you will end up with responses from whoever happens to be there, and they will still contain opinion mixed with documented statements.

You seem to be asking that we set aside all opinion, personal belief, and attempts to connect with you as a person. What you are looking for is what a book can offer. We are humans.

I'm not sure if I understand the majority of your point(s) but thanks for the input.

This is the forum for "questions by non-Christians", is it not?

I believe I am a non-Christian. I posed a theological question in the OP. Thus, I may not believe in a personal god, but I do believe I am complying with the rules here. If my question should have properly been posed in the Apologetics forum, then I apologize.

I ask the moderator to decide and to transfer this thread to the Apologetics forum now if that is the proper place for it.

 

[MethodMan]

No need

 

[calidog]

All of the above is granted but seems irrelevant to the original question. The split-brain person is, seemingly, of two understandings, two minds, two hearts, even two strengths and two imaginations. The question then follows - can he be of two souls? If not, then the question remains of how can the theory of one soul be properly reconciled with all the above "twos"?

it appears you are talking about one persons body having two distinct persons, i.e. two distinct personalities. The answer to your question is yes, there are two souls.

 

[JGL53]

...The thing here is we are dealing with matters of faith. My church has attempted to use logic a part of its teachings for a long time now, and I am not sure that is a good idea. To believe is different than to know....

Here I understand and agree. If the Catholic church, or any religious organization, comes to me for advice, I will surely follow your lead and recommend to them pure fideism and to run from modern science as if it were a raging lion. But what are the odds they will ask my advice?

...Transubstantiation is an excellent example. I believe it because to the best of my knowledge, Jesus said it and he is not known to be a liar, at least in the circles in which I run. Do I know that the host is his body, no I don't. I also don't know that the sun will rise tomorrow but I believe it will, yes based on past experience....

Again, each person's personal experience of reality rules - in the life of that person. But modern cognitive science (brain research) is not going to give anyone a pass in order to avoid hurt feelings. You must reconcile yourself to continued scientific progress and scientific understanding. To the degree that it produces findings that contradict your personal beliefs - again, avoid the raging lion is all I can advise. There will be no more house arrests of a Galileo by the R.C.C. in this century. Science marches on - join, or step aside in order not to get run down seems to be the order of the day.

...To quantify belief is like catching smoke or explaining color to man born blind. We can try, we can believe in our efficacy, but we will never know....

If the "we" here refers to the religiously pious who have no knowledge of what modern scientists are really up to - then, yes. But the scientific method is producing and will continue to produce, I suspect, qualification of a lot of "essences" you never dreamed possible.

...Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus and we hold it in our hearts. Is it possible that the Hindus are right and we are wrong? Well that is something we do not know.

...

Give Dr. Ramachandran a couple of more decades of research time, and he may prove, say, that the Mormons have been right all along. IOW, don't try to predict what science can or cannot do in the future. You have no way of knowing any more than the next fellow.

 

[heron]

You state the obvious, as the people who wrote the bible were ignorant of. E.g., the germ theory of disease, atomic theory, that the brain was the organ of consciousness, that the earth moved and goes around the sun?

Actually, these are assumptions but not necessarily true. The book of Enoch describes the movements of the solar system. And the Mosaic law sets up many conditions to prevent the spread of disease -- even though no microscopes were unearthed, the people knew enough to contain the spread of microorganisms, and to wash their hands and feet before eating and entering a home.

Where, then is the “essence” of which you speak?

You know as well as I do. When someone scientifically measures and tracks the spirit, we will have a better idea.

There is a longer version of this on youtube. Plus, if interested, Dr. Ramachandran wrote about this phenomenon in his book “A Brief Tour Of Human Consciousness”.

Oaky, thanks. I started to watch his third video on seizures, but realized I was off on a tangent.

Define “full life”

I suppose I am referring more to the roles of each part of the brain. Besides the basic structure of medulla-corpus colossum-cerebellum-cerebrum-fluid, there are many parts that have been tested to house specific functions.

http://www.med.harvard.edu/AANLIB/cases/caseM/case.html
http://psych.hanover.edu/Krantz/neural/023.html

Even though the brain appears symmetrical, I doubt it functions as symmetrically as he describes.

When people have a stroke or tumor that causes loss of function, the damage is not symmetrical.

Either a person is in god’s grace – or he is not. How Christian theological beliefs (assumptions) are reconcilable with the demonstrated evidence of theological difference (difference in belief) within the brain of the individual split-brain person – that would STILL be my challenge to you.

I consider this the same discussion as a person with severe mental retardation, in a coma, or in late stages of Alzheimers. God knows specifically what our weaknesses are, he is holding us accountable for.

For he knows our frame; He is mindful that we are dust.
Ps 103:14 -

Either a living person has no soul or he has none.

I don't think that's specific to Christianity, but to human experience. No one wants to imagine that their life dreams, skills, and goals are simply a matter of physiology.

Either a person is in god’s grace – or he is not. How Christian theological beliefs (assumptions) are reconcilable with the demonstrated evidence of theological difference (difference in belief) within the brain of the individual split-brain person

There were times when the Jewish patriarchs expressed frustration with God, but He did not leave them, or base His relationship on the ups and downs of their moods.

Jonah tried to avoid giving a message from God, and preferred to hide in a sea creature. God is quite father-like in His responses.

But the Christian theory is, as I understand it, that a person, at a particular point in time, is either saved or is not.

And that should be a source of humility for Christians as well, but we tend to rest on laurels and attribute our salvation to ourselves. Salvation was an offer.

I would guess that when the tunnel of light appears to the split brain's soul, there will be a brief moment of choice. This is not scriptural, but I have heard many, many near-death accounts where individuals had discussions and made choices, and went to multiple locations. It's certainly not solid evidence, but I feel it's enough to base my personal theories on.

Nevertheless, there is no limbo regarding actual belief, as I understand Christian theory. The “agnostic”, upon death, if he disbelieves in god in that moment, is assigned to hell –but if, in that moment, he properly believes in god, then he (his immortal soul) go to heaven.

Ha ha, we would be awfully presumptious to declare what God was going to do at a stage He didn't inform us about, and over which we have no control. We'd like to know everything, but we know what we need to get through.

And if an agnostic has any doubt as to whether there is even a God or not making these decisions, that's another matter. Christians base their beliefs about the afterlife on a handful of verses, and that's all we can lay claim to.

God offered us something we could not accomplish ourselves. It is our choice to say yes or no.

Thank you for being decent... sorry I overreacted on my last post.

 

[heron]

I do believe I am complying with the rules here. If my question should have properly been posed in the Apologetics forum, then I apologize.

My reaction wasn't about rules -- it just seemed you were asking too much out of a few short comments. If I were paid to answer questions here, I would spend more time researching my answers. But discussion is a pleasant past-time for many people here.

 

[JGL53]

it appears you are talking about one persons body having two distinct persons, i.e. two distinct personalities. The answer to your question is yes, there are two souls.

Well, I am a trusting fellow. I will not even ask for a scriptural reference here. I just had no idea the "soul" was such a protean phenomenon.

So, a person starts, usually, with one body, one soul, and one developing personality. If there occurs a true split-brain in the one body at one point for some reason, revealing the new occasion of two personalities in one body, then the "soul" likewise splits, along with both the brain and the personality. Thus, one "body" can contain two "souls", one of which may be destined to heaven and one to hell. In terms of Calvinism, it is all part of god's great plan, from the beginning.

Well, that clears that up.

Moderator - please close this thread. Problem solved.