Spiritual Marriage:

[Stealth001]

Please note, my grand parents were married under the common law here in Ohio long before 1991. They didn't have a license, didn't have a wedding ceremony, etc. However, they addressed each other as husband and wife and everyone recognized them has husband and wife, even their church.

 

[seeingeyes]

Please note, my grand parents were married under the common law here in Ohio long before 1991. They didn't have a license, didn't have a wedding ceremony, etc. However, they addressed each other as husband and wife and everyone recognized them has husband and wife, even their church.

And the divorce court would have addressed them as husband and wife, too. The reinstatement of recognition for Common Law marriage wouldn't address your problem.

 

[Stealth001]

And the divorce court would have addressed them as husband and wife, too. The reinstatement of recognition for Common Law marriage wouldn't address your problem.

It wouldn't address my concerns with the divorce court system. However, it would allow for us to self officiate our wedding and to not participate in getting a "license", or stand before an "agent of the state" for something that is a natural right.

It meets 3 out of 4 of our needs.

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

Jeesh, you make it sound like every night is "party time". Yes, we've had sex. Not proud of it, but that's the truth. It's not every night. Sometimes a week or longer can pass.

Paul wrote...

1 Corinthians 7:8-9

English Standard Version (ESV)

8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.



​

Okay, admittedly we've had trouble with self-control. I'm not going to lie about that. Paul's admonishment is that we marry. That brought us into a deeper conversation with regards to how our society and culture a defines marriage, what a biblical marriage is, and what we both desire out of a marriage. Hense this thread.

Why not remain abstinent until you've got it figured out and can go through with whatever form of marriage you end up with?

 

[Stealth001]

Why not remain abstinent until you've got it figured out and can go through with whatever form of marriage you end up with?

That's a fair question.

We started seeing one another and we hit it off. I have known her since high school. In fact, my ex wife was my high school sweetheart... and Christina was my best friend's girlfriend. So, we all know each other rather well and things fit well.

I'd like to ask for some mercy and understanding here... I was a minister in my church and my ex was very involved in music ministry. We had a powerful calling on our lives. We had dreams and high hopes in God... well... at least I know I did. When my wife decided to abandon the faith and slip around with a guy (and even a girl) she worked with... I hit my knees and prayed. I pleaded with her to attend marriage counseling. It was like she was possessed. She wasn't the woman I knew. She was angry, venomous, hateful, spiteful, and I was absolutely beside myself. She's toned it down since then, but it was very, very bad in the beginning. When she refused marriage counseling and all attempts at reconciliation I let go and accepted that it was over. I fell into a very deep depression. I was so distraught I became angry with God. I "played by the rules"... why was my family being destroyed??? Today, I understand why. To make a long story short... I left church and began binge drinking. I was an absolute mess. I was in a tailspin straight into Hell. However, when I "friended" Christina on Facebook. We caught up on our lives. She had gone through a very difficult divorce also. We shared stories. She was really kind and understanding, but she was worried about me. She lent me her car because mine was repossessed. My ex had trashed my apartment... Chris worked all weekend at one point to get it clean and add a "comfort factor" (what I call a "woman's touch"). I was at the end of my rope. Even contemplating suicide. She actually cared about me. Some nights I couldn't stay home. She lived out of town but her parents live in town. When she'd come to visit me she'd stay with her parents and sometimes they'd ask me to stay if they felt I needed to feel apart of a family. A romance developed. She wanted to move back into town for work and needed a permanent place. Both of us were struggling so hard financially. It's hard to raise kids when you're barely able to afford food and clothing after paying all the bills. And I didn't want to lose joint custody. So we decided that although it isn't "perfect" and the way we'd ever really have planned our lives... we'd move in together to bring financial stability to our lives.


Christina was also a Christian who had given up on God and church. However, she felt that God was calling her back to church. She asked me to come and at first I refused vehemently. Then she offered to come with me to my old church if I'd just be willing to try. I broke down and told her how ashamed I was, how much of a failure I was, how everyone would stare at me and judge me. She promised that she'd sit right next to me... and that I wouldn't be alone. If they judged me... they'd have to judge her too. She said I'd not be alone. So... we went. And that was the first day of my spiritual restoration.

Since then my faith has become a very deep and personal thing. I belong to a rather large church that is a network of "house churches". I feel better in house church because you can't dress up and pretend everything is okay. In a group of 7 men it all comes out. And we confess our sins one to another and pray for one another. We admonish one another to higher levels of Christ likeness. Yes... I'm still cleaning up areas of my life. Things aren't perfect. But... I'm believing that things will be "better" than they were.

And so... here we are. Living together and making our way back to a restoration in Christ. The leading elder feels that if we separated right now, our kids (both six) could be deeply traumatized. So, he encourages us to "draw as close to Jesus as you can right now" and to consider marriage. I asked him what he thought about the "spiritual marriage covenant". He said that he understood where we were coming from and that he'd pray about it. He indicated that it's primarily between us and God. He also said that if it is God's will that we be "legally married", even if we "spiritually married", God would impress upon us to make the spiritual marriage legal. I think he's been tender, patient, and encouraging. And with what we've been through... maybe that's the best approach.

He says that we are "Broken and beautiful."

Anyway... that's a Reader's Digest version of our story.

 

[Stealth001]

Here's an interesting quote from someone I don't know personally, and I don't know his, or her, real name.

A Scripturally lawful marriage constitutes a private contract/covenant between a man and a woman, with YHWH recognized and acknowledged as the Source and Creator of the union. The only elements of a lawful marriage involves none other than these three parties.

A civil, legal "marriage" constitutes an incorporation between two partners with the State recognized and acknowledged as the source and creator of the corporation. The only legally recognized elements of a legal "marriage" involves only these three parties. Since the State is the source and creator of a legal "marriage", it has great power over regulating the union and production of these partners, including authoritative power over its dissolution/"divorce".

​

I find his perspective similar to my own.

​

 

[ValleyGal]

Just because it's a legal agreement, does not mean you are making a statement that it is the state which is the source or the creator of the institution. The state only has as much power over the union as you give it. God created the institution. The state created a common legal contract for it. I think you are reading far more into "legal" marriage than you need to, and then you blame the state for having too much power or control. They are not telling you who you can or can't marry, aside from what is already biblical and common sense (ie you can't marry your sister).

You said

He also said that if it is God's will that we be "legally married", even if we "spiritually married", God would impress upon us to make the spiritual marriage legal. I think he's been tender, patient, and encouraging. And with what we've been through... maybe that's the best approach.

I think what is happening is that God IS indeed impressing on you to be legally married, but you are fighting it tooth and nail, looking for excuses not to. I think he is impressing it on you; otherwise, you would not have posted here. But I think you are also hardening your heart to what he is impressing on you, to satisfy your own fears. But there is no fear in love. If there is genuine love in your relationship, there is no reason to fear the divorce court or even a marriage license. Imo, this is about placing more faith in your fear than you are placing in God.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

I think what is happening is that God IS indeed impressing on you to be legally married, but you are fighting it tooth and nail, looking for excuses not to. I think he is impressing it on you; otherwise, you would not have posted here. But I think you are also hardening your heart to what he is impressing on you, to satisfy your own fears. But there is no fear in love. If there is genuine love in your relationship, there is no reason to fear the divorce court or even a marriage license. Imo, this is about placing more faith in your fear than you are placing in God.

Exactly. Hes been told this over and over. I even pointed I did the same thing with who I was with years ago. I refused to accept the real truth and kept looking for loopholes so I could be right. When people say "Are you feeling convicted and that is why you are angry?". I would say no, I was angry because they were wrong. But obviously I knew deep down they were right.

We all have to answer for how we act here when we die. I'd rather God knows I tried to go about doing everything biblically.

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

I guess I am just not able to relate because when I became a Christian, I immediately became abstinent and remained so from 2002 until 2010 when I got married (my husband and I started dating in 2008). It was a long wait but not something I regret whatsoever.

It just seems like, from my experience, the more you relax and trust in God/do things His way, the better life gets. Usually, the things He seems to want seem illogical and sometimes downright scary, but somehow it works out.

 

[Stealth001]

Just because it's a legal agreement, does not mean you are making a statement that it is the state which is the source or the creator of the institution. The state only has as much power over the union as you give it. God created the institution. The state created a common legal contract for it. I think you are reading far more into "legal" marriage than you need to, and then you blame the state for having too much power or control. They are not telling you who you can or can't marry, aside from what is already biblical and common sense (ie you can't marry your sister).

You said


I think what is happening is that God IS indeed impressing on you to be legally married, but you are fighting it tooth and nail, looking for excuses not to. I think he is impressing it on you; otherwise, you would not have posted here. But I think you are also hardening your heart to what he is impressing on you, to satisfy your own fears. But there is no fear in love. If there is genuine love in your relationship, there is no reason to fear the divorce court or even a marriage license. Imo, this is about placing more faith in your fear than you are placing in God.

I know that this is a personal question, and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to. But have you been through a divorce? I'm just curious.

Because to me, you sound like a girl with stars in her eyes. After having been through the pure Hades I endured... I'm a realist.

I'm posting here to see what the general reaction would be and what thoughts people might have within the body of Christ with regards to this decision.

The LORD has led me on quite a bit of study on this. Everything from laws relating to Common Law Marriage, the idea of private Contract Marriages, the ancient biblical marriage contract (the ketubah), how divorce was handled in biblical times, etc.

God has truly shown me repeatedly... marriage is a private matter between individuals and families. It's only been under state control since the state church of Europe and in the marriage licensing process in the United States.

It's eye opening. And it reveals why marriage is in such bad shape today. Instead of it being something deeply personal with stipulated expectations... couples get bound together legally by the state. If they can't figure out what they want out of life and the marriage they get discontent. Then, with no fault divorce laws, and the monetary benefits to be gained through the state divorce court system, divorce becomes rather lucrative for the party who can get the best attorney and can fight the dirtiest.

As with nearly anything... if it's socialized... it's ruined.

Now... GOD never changes. So... does God laugh at government and it's petty insisting that it holds the power to regulate and difine marriage/divorce??? Or does God change His mind to suit the whims of the government???

The point is... I've been there and done that already. I've yet to meet a divorcee that didn't agree with me. I still meet stary eyed marries who have never faced divorce (and I pray they never do) who can't wrap their brains around the fact that what I present is superior than anything the government can offer... because it is the way marriage was designed, presented, and practiced... in God's Word.

Now... I fully understand that you advocate a civil marriage that's legally binding by the state. But seriously, what if a couple didn't want this? Could you accept their contract marriage and welcome them into fellowship as being "married" (albeit unconventionally)?

Could you accept them... even if you didn't entirely agree and had your reservations?

 

[Stealth001]

Interesting note... in biblical times the marriage contract (the ketubah) was drawn up by the groom and/or the groom's family. The bride and/or the family of the bride had to accept it. It was a private arrangement. No government involvement.

In addition, divorces were handled privately also. All one had to do is declare that the marriage to their spouse was over before witnesses. Then the individual personally issued the divorce decree (get). The divorce decree formally declared the divorced spouse to remarry. No courts.

Essentially, it was an elaborate private break up.

And for THOUSANDS of years God honored that. The modern model of marriage that you're familiar with isn't historical marriage... nor is it biblical. It's a modern social innovation brought upon us by an ever invasive government.

You might disagree... or not hold such a strong point of view on the matter. But... can you see where I'm coming from? Could you accept my personal convictions on the matter concerning my marriage, while personally embracing what you value concerning your marriage?

Remember, since marriage was a private contract... there wasn't a "one size fits all" approach to it. Every Ketubah was a bit different, because contracts are normally personalized and mean something personally to the parties involved.

 

[ValleyGal]

I know that this is a personal question, and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to. But have you been through a divorce? I'm just curious.

Because to me, you sound like a girl with stars in her eyes. After having been through the pure Hades I endured... I'm a realist.

I guess you did not read where I already posted a response to this same question earlier in the thread.

I am a realist as well, and with plenty of experience in the divorce arena. My first husband ran away from home, believing [in error] that our son was not his. I was married again, to a man who was in active ministry and beat the tar out of me three times in one month, nearly killing me the third time, as he defended his "right" to view inappropriate content and touch.

These men both claimed to be Christians, one was in active ministry, and my first divorce took a very long time because of settling custody and maintenance issues. It was ugly. I have been around the block with my parents, too, helping my mom to survive an extremely angry and bitter divorce and unfair settlement of assets. That took years of watching her suffer under the money-hungry thumbs of their lawyers. After my last divorce, I did not even think about marrying again for nearly ten years, and remained abstinent during that time.

God has truly shown me repeatedly... marriage is a private matter between individuals and families. It's only been under state control since the state church of Europe and in the marriage licensing process in the United States.

Just because the state has license, does not mean it has "control" except by law - that is, things like being unable to marry a sibling, polygamy, etc. And the government should enforce those laws, including by licensing marriage.

Let's look at it the other way. If the state did not have licenses, how could they possibly regulate polygamy? People could "marry" 20 partners in "spiritual" marriage, all could collect social funding (because legally they are still "single" or not legally married) as single people, and they could have a pretty comfy lifestyle at the expense of other taxpayers. Not having license makes it far too easy to break the laws when it comes to marriage.

But here's the thing. The Bible tells us that God has placed authorities over us - the institution of government. There is also the God-created institution of marriage. God created them both, and we are to obey the government if it does not directly go against obedience to God. One of God's authorities does not trump the other except when it comes to the government forcing us to disobey God. IOW, obeying government IS obeying God.

Now... GOD never changes. So... does God laugh at government and it's petty insisting that it holds the power to regulate and difine marriage/divorce??? Or does God change His mind to suit the whims of the government???

God put the government in place. And for the most part, the law supports biblical regulation of marriage (who and how many you can marry). Now, when there is a conflict between God and state, God's law trumps. For example, think about gay marriage. The government supports gay marriage, God doesn't. Obey God. But the rest of it is all stuff the Bible supports, so we need to obey the government because doing so is obeying God. They have their reasons for licensing, and part of that reason is to control polygamy and other marriage laws. And when it comes to divorce, because marriage is a legal contract/covenant, there has to be a way to legally dissolve the contract/covenant if necessary.

what I present is superior than anything the government can offer... because it is the way marriage was designed, presented, and practiced... in God's Word.

Nobody's way is superior to God's way, and God's way is to honour the laws of the land if it does not cause you to sin. And legally marrying does not cause you to sin; therefore, God's way is the legal way.

Could you accept them... even if you didn't entirely agree?

I can accept them as people, but I would not ever consider them married. I would think of them as living in sin, and I would talk with them about it, just as I am now with you.

I've yet to meet a divorcee that didn't agree with me.

I have never met a Christian divorcee who does agree with you. Every Christian divorcee I've ever met still believes in legal marriage. Including me. I have lived through the pain of divorce. I know how nasty it can be and the devastating effect on everyone involved from the spouses to the greater community. But I also know the grace of the Lord Jesus, and how when people have worked through the pain of divorce, they do not hold the bitter view you seem to be hanging onto in order to justify living in sin.

 

[ValleyGal]

Remember, since marriage was a private contract... there wasn't a "one size fits all" approach to it. Every Ketubah was a bit different, because contracts are normally personalized and mean something personally to the parties involved.

It was still a legal document. Government provides the legal formal template for this through the license.

 

[Stealth001]

The Ketubah wasn't a legal document provided by the government! ROFL

It was written up by the groom and his parents in most cases and contained the agreed upon Mohar. LOL

 

[Stealth001]

Interesting thoughts about Marriage:

"My personal opinion is government shouldn’t be involved. The whole country would be better off if individuals made those decisions and it was a private matter." ~ Ron Paul

"The best approach is to make marriage a private matter. When we no longer believe that civilization is dependent on government expansion, regulating excesses, and a license for everything we do, we will know that civilization and the ideas of liberty are advancing." ~ Ron Paul

"Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"Both George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were married without a marriage license. They simply recorded their marriage in their Family Bibles. So should we." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"As a minister, I cannot in good conscience perform a marriage which would place people under this immoral body of laws. I also cannot marry someone with a marriage license because to do so I have to act as an agent of the State—literally! I would have to sign the marriage license, and I would have to mail it into the State. Given the State’s demand to usurp the place of God and family regarding marriage, and given it’s unbiblical, immoral laws to govern marriage, it would be an act of idolatry for me to do so." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"Some couples choose to marry within the meeting without registering their marriage with the government, a tradition dating back to Quakerism's earliest days." ~ From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

 

[Stealth001]

I guess you did not read where I already posted a response to this same question earlier in the thread.

I am a realist as well, and with plenty of experience in the divorce arena. My first husband ran away from home, believing [in error] that our son was not his. I was married again, to a man who was in active ministry and beat the tar out of me three times in one month, nearly killing me the third time, as he defended his "right" to view inappropriate content and touch.

These men both claimed to be Christians, one was in active ministry, and my first divorce took a very long time because of settling custody and maintenance issues. It was ugly. I have been around the block with my parents, too, helping my mom to survive an extremely angry and bitter divorce and unfair settlement of assets. That took years of watching her suffer under the money-hungry thumbs of their lawyers. After my last divorce, I did not even think about marrying again for nearly ten years, and remained abstinent during that time.



Just because the state has license, does not mean it has "control" except by law - that is, things like being unable to marry a sibling, polygamy, etc. And the government should enforce those laws, including by licensing marriage.

Let's look at it the other way. If the state did not have licenses, how could they possibly regulate polygamy? People could "marry" 20 partners in "spiritual" marriage, all could collect social funding (because legally they are still "single" or not legally married) as single people, and they could have a pretty comfy lifestyle at the expense of other taxpayers. Not having license makes it far too easy to break the laws when it comes to marriage.

But here's the thing. The Bible tells us that God has placed authorities over us - the institution of government. There is also the God-created institution of marriage. God created them both, and we are to obey the government if it does not directly go against obedience to God. One of God's authorities does not trump the other except when it comes to the government forcing us to disobey God. IOW, obeying government IS obeying God.



God put the government in place. And for the most part, the law supports biblical regulation of marriage (who and how many you can marry). Now, when there is a conflict between God and state, God's law trumps. For example, think about gay marriage. The government supports gay marriage, God doesn't. Obey God. But the rest of it is all stuff the Bible supports, so we need to obey the government because doing so is obeying God. They have their reasons for licensing, and part of that reason is to control polygamy and other marriage laws. And when it comes to divorce, because marriage is a legal contract/covenant, there has to be a way to legally dissolve the contract/covenant if necessary.



Nobody's way is superior to God's way, and God's way is to honour the laws of the land if it does not cause you to sin. And legally marrying does not cause you to sin; therefore, God's way is the legal way.



I can accept them as people, but I would not ever consider them married. I would think of them as living in sin, and I would talk with them about it, just as I am now with you.



I have never met a Christian divorcee who does agree with you. Every Christian divorcee I've ever met still believes in legal marriage. Including me. I have lived through the pain of divorce. I know how nasty it can be and the devastating effect on everyone involved from the spouses to the greater community. But I also know the grace of the Lord Jesus, and how when people have worked through the pain of divorce, they do not hold the bitter view you seem to be hanging onto in order to justify living in sin.

And...no offence... but... you are a woman.

However... men have far more to lose from the court systems. I live in what is called "a mother state". That means the mother has all the power regarding the custody and well being of the child... unless terrible abuse can be proven. This is why my attorney essentially suggested that I lie about her abusing our son to try to give me the upper hand. It also means that it's a given that men not only lose any chance at full custody, but they will have to pay "spousal support" and "child support"... even if she's the one who cheated, broke the bank account, trashed the car, refused counseling, and essentially abandoned us. LOL

Justice in the family court system is a JOKE if you're a man.

Never before in history has a man had more to lose by getting married. That's why I say men should take back the institution of marriage. Push and politic for binding Contract Marriages. Let's get back to the way marriage was for THOUSANDS of years... the way God truly intended it.

 

[ValleyGal]

The Ketubah wasn't a legal document provided by the government! ROFL

It was written up by the groom and his parents in most cases and contained the agreed upon Mohar. LOL

I never said the ketubah was provided by the government. I said it was still a legal contract.

The government does not need to provide it in order to be a legal contract. I am saying it's a whole lot easier to just get the state contract anyway because it is a basic template for marriage, and it follows the law, with the provisions of whatever loopholes for divorce.

 

[ValleyGal]

Interesting thoughts about Marriage:

"My personal opinion is government shouldn’t be involved. The whole country would be better off if individuals made those decisions and it was a private matter." ~ Ron Paul

"The best approach is to make marriage a private matter. When we no longer believe that civilization is dependent on government expansion, regulating excesses, and a license for everything we do, we will know that civilization and the ideas of liberty are advancing." ~ Ron Paul

"Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"Both George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were married without a marriage license. They simply recorded their marriage in their Family Bibles. So should we." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"As a minister, I cannot in good conscience perform a marriage which would place people under this immoral body of laws. I also cannot marry someone with a marriage license because to do so I have to act as an agent of the State—literally! I would have to sign the marriage license, and I would have to mail it into the State. Given the State’s demand to usurp the place of God and family regarding marriage, and given it’s unbiblical, immoral laws to govern marriage, it would be an act of idolatry for me to do so." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"Some couples choose to marry within the meeting without registering their marriage with the government, a tradition dating back to Quakerism's earliest days." ~ From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

These people, whoever they are, are not my authorities. I do not know them or recognize them and there is nothing saying they have any authority in the matter.

 

[Stealth001]

I never said the ketubah was provided by the government. I said it was still a legal contract.

The government does not need to provide it in order to be a legal contract. I am saying it's a whole lot easier to just get the state contract anyway because it is a basic template for marriage, and it follows the law, with the provisions of whatever loopholes for divorce.

Look up the ketubah... it was a private contract. Even today Jews must have a ketubah... civil law doesn't acknowledge them. They are not "legal" contracts. That's why Jews have to get two divorces... one civil divorce... the other a private Jewish divorce with an issued "get" (writ of divorcement). LOL

 

[Stealth001]

I never said the ketubah was provided by the government. I said it was still a legal contract.

The government does not need to provide it in order to be a legal contract. I am saying it's a whole lot easier to just get the state contract anyway because it is a basic template for marriage, and it follows the law, with the provisions of whatever loopholes for divorce.

In your opinion. The state contract includes a no fault clause. A private contractural marriage doesn't have to. If our government recognized private marriages... if someone tried to divorce without grounds as stipulated in the contract they'd be guilty of breach of contract and forfeit all divorce entitlements. Now THAT might strengthen marriages. Again... that's how God originally made it.