Spiritual Israel

[fozzy]

Spiritual Israel is an idea that has gone the way of the dodo bird in modern Protestant Christianity. I frequently attend bible studies from different denominations and many are dispensational in their understanding of the church and Israel. I usually do not voice my opinions on Israel because they are so different but on a few occasions I have. This led to no small dissent and I was really shocked at how far many Christians have gone in the devotion to Israel. I was labeled as anti-Semitic simply because I do not believe that a largely secular and atheistic nation that was born in 1948 is a fulfillment of prophecy. Needless to say I was not invited back; I guess some cannot abide my good company and pleasant disposition. lol So I thought we would go thru the bible and see if there really is a spiritual Israel or if every mention of Israel is always ethnic.

The best place to start with anything is at the beginning so let’s start with Jacob the father of Israel. Jacob which means supplanter or deceiver lived up to his name when he stole the birthright from his brother Esau by deception. Jacob was forced to leave his home and family and was actually deceived himself by his uncle Laban when he gave Leah to him as a wife when he thought it was Rachel. Jacob after many years away from home decides to return with a large family of his own. Just before he returns he learns that Esau is waiting with a large company of men who surely mean to do him harm. He splits up his family and spends the night alone in prayer when a stranger attacks him and they wrestle throughout the night. His attacker after hours of conflict touches his thigh and knocks his hip out of socket and tries to leave. Jacob who must have realized the identity of his attacker refuses to let go until he receives a blessing. His tenacity and determination are rewarded when he is given the new name of Israel which means prince of God or he who strives with God.

What we should take away from this story is that Jacob was not born with the name of Israel. It was given to him later in life after he prevailed with the angel of the Lord. This word prevail is very important and actually the word overcome has the same meaning. The overcomers of the seven churches of Revelation receive all the blessings. And actually one of those blessings is receiving a new name. Jacob overcame and became the father of Israel therefore membership in Israel is not based exclusively on ethnicity. Jacob was also the father of ethnic Israel or the twelve tribes so we see two distinct lines that come from him. One line based on spirituality or faith and the other based on ethnicity or the flesh. Jesus speaking of the Roman centurion said - Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 8:10-12

…to be continued

 

[ricker]

Spiritual Israel is an idea that has gone the way of the dodo bird in modern Protestant Christianity. I frequently attend bible studies from different denominations and many are dispensational in their understanding of the church and Israel. I usually do not voice my opinions on Israel because they are so different but on a few occasions I have. This led to no small dissent and I was really shocked at how far many Christians have gone in the devotion to Israel. I was labeled as anti-Semitic simply because I do not believe that a largely secular and atheistic nation that was born in 1948 is a fulfillment of prophecy. Needless to say I was not invited back; I guess some cannot abide my good company and pleasant disposition. lol So I thought we would go thru the bible and see if there really is a spiritual Israel or if every mention of Israel is always ethnic.

The best place to start with anything is at the beginning so let’s start with Jacob the father of Israel. Jacob which means supplanter or deceiver lived up to his name when he stole the birthright from his brother Esau by deception. Jacob was forced to leave his home and family and was actually deceived himself by his uncle Laban when he gave Leah to him as a wife when he thought it was Rachel. Jacob after many years away from home decides to return with a large family of his own. Just before he returns he learns that Esau is waiting with a large company of men who surely mean to do him harm. He splits up his family and spends the night alone in prayer when a stranger attacks him and they wrestle throughout the night. His attacker after hours of conflict touches his thigh and knocks his hip out of socket and tries to leave. Jacob who must have realized the identity of his attacker refuses to let go until he receives a blessing. His tenacity and determination are rewarded when he is given the new name of Israel which means prince of God or he who strives with God.

What we should take away from this story is that Jacob was not born with the name of Israel. It was given to him later in life after he prevailed with the angel of the Lord. This word prevail is very important and actually the word overcome has the same meaning. The overcomers of the seven churches of Revelation receive all the blessings. And actually one of those blessings is receiving a new name. Jacob overcame and became the father of Israel therefore membership in Israel is not based exclusively on ethnicity. Jacob was also the father of ethnic Israel or the twelve tribes so we see two distinct lines that come from him. One line based on spirituality or faith and the other based on ethnicity or the flesh. Jesus speaking of the Roman centurion said - Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 8:10-12

…to be continued

The reason the idea of "spiritual Israel" isn't accepted in orthodox Christianity is because it isn't in the Bible.

So the twelve tribes of Israel are somehow linked to the seven churches in Revelation? I don't see a correlation.

 

[IamNazarene]

I do not think Israel is an ethinicity or a land. It has become accepted that Israel is a blessed land.

I do not think the land is ISrael but Canaan and a few other names.
As fare as I carer Israel is the wife of god.
Israel is a She and the book of proverbes describes her.

As far as the word of God speaks, Israel is a spiritual seed continued in Christ Jesus.

The Jew is also a spiritual trube..

So there is no ethnic Jew either.

Personally, I am really blessed to know God counts me as his Jew

 

[fozzy]

The reason the idea of "spiritual Israel" isn't accepted in orthodox Christianity is because it isn't in the Bible.

So the twelve tribes of Israel are somehow linked to the seven churches in Revelation? I don't see a correlation.

'Spiritual Israel' was accepted by orthodox Christianity from it's inception. The relatively new ideas brought about by John Darby and Dispensationalism are only a few hundred years old.

Paul said that he is not a Jew which is one outwardly and circumcision is that of the heart or spirit. Circumcision was the outward sign of being a Jew or a member of Israel. Spiritual circumcision or being born again is the outward sign of being part of spiritual Israel which would include believing Jews and Gentiles.

 

[fozzy]

I do not think Israel is an ethinicity or a land. It has become accepted that Israel is a blessed land.

I do not think the land is ISrael but Canaan and a few other names.
As fare as I carer Israel is the wife of god.
Israel is a She and the book of proverbes describes her.

As far as the word of God speaks, Israel is a spiritual seed continued in Christ Jesus.

The Jew is also a spiritual trube..

So there is no ethnic Jew either.

Personally, I am really blessed to know God counts me as his Jew

Amen.

 

[ricker]

Paul said that he is not a Jew which is one outwardly and circumcision is that of the heart or spirit. Circumcision was the outward sign of being a Jew or a member of Israel. Spiritual circumcision or being born again is the outward sign of being part of spiritual Israel which would include believing Jews and Gentiles.

OK, now I'm confused. Where does Paul say he isn't a Jew?
I'm sure you know he was a Jew, and was circumcised.


Would you kindly reference a Biblical passage that equates circumcision with being born again.

 

[ricker]

'Spiritual Israel' was accepted by orthodox Christianity from it's inception. The relatively new ideas brought about by John Darby and Dispensationalism are only a few hundred years old.

I'm not sure where you come to this understanding. Any orthodox Christian references confirming Christians are "Spiritual Israel" would be helpful to me.

 

[ricker]

I do not think Israel is an ethinicity or a land. It has become accepted that Israel is a blessed land.

I do not think the land is ISrael but Canaan and a few other names.
As fare as I carer Israel is the wife of god.
Israel is a She and the book of proverbes describes her.

As far as the word of God speaks, Israel is a spiritual seed continued in Christ Jesus.

The Jew is also a spiritual trube..

So there is no ethnic Jew either.

Personally, I am really blessed to know God counts me as his Jew

I see lots of nice opinions here. Do you have any Biblical passages saying that Christians are "Spiritual Israel"?

 

[ricker]

'Spiritual Israel' was accepted by orthodox Christianity from it's inception. The relatively new ideas brought about by John Darby and Dispensationalism are only a few hundred years old.

Paul said that he is not a Jew which is one outwardly and circumcision is that of the heart or spirit. Circumcision was the outward sign of being a Jew or a member of Israel. Spiritual circumcision or being born again is the outward sign of being part of spiritual Israel which would include believing Jews and Gentiles.

I still don't see how the twelve tribes of Israel are somehow linked with the seven churches of Revelation.

 

[IamNazarene]

I see lots of nice opinions here. Do you have any Biblical passages saying that Christians are "Spiritual Israel"?

Opinions are opinions and unless they are sound with the word of God, they are worth nought.

This sounds harsh but the truth is this.
What we humans have to say means nothing.

What GOd has to say means everything.
---------------------

There is no passages saying Israel is a land but Israelites took the land which is Canaan and a few other names.

Exodus 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

Exodus 13:5 And it shall be when the Lord shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites


Israel were given that land. That land was not blessed.

To be honest I really do not want to pull out passage after passage.
Read the entire old testament.

Read how the prophets constantly warned the Israelites of there end if they did not turn back to GOd.

You can read the threats again and again.

God said he will continue his covenant with Israel through Jesus.

It is very clear that GOd will scatter Israel into the nation and regather.

This is not the 1947 movement.

When GOd said he will regather he meant he will do it through jesus.

So Jesus has the Israelites now.

The Israelites are the seeed of CHrist.

It is very clear.

This is not my opinion, this is what the word of God says.

 

[fozzy]

OK, now I'm confused. Where does Paul say he isn't a Jew?
I'm sure you know he was a Jew, and was circumcised.


Would you kindly reference a Biblical passage that equates circumcision with being born again.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Rom. 2:28:29

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col. 2:11

..For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom. 9:6-8

 

[fozzy]

I'm not sure where you come to this understanding. Any orthodox Christian references confirming Christians are "Spiritual Israel" would be helpful to me.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 100–165) is important in the history of supersessionism because he was the first Christian writer to explicitly identify the church as “Israel.”Justin declared, “For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham . . . are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.” He also said, “Since then God blesses this people [i.e., Christians], and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you [Jews] repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel?” Justin also announced that, “We, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelite race.” - Dialogue with Trypho

Many of the early church fathers and Protestant reformers were so anti-Jewish that when Dispensationalism gained such a following and foothold they threw out the baby with the bath water so to speak. The anti-Semitism did need to go but not the belief that the church is spiritual Israel.

 

[fozzy]

I still don't see how the twelve tribes of Israel are somehow linked with the seven churches of Revelation.

I will be updating this thread periodically and the next installment will deal with this.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Justin Martyr (A.D. 100–165) is important in the history of supersessionism because he was the first Christian writer to explicitly identify the church as “Israel.”Justin declared, “For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham . . . are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.” He also said, “Since then God blesses this people [i.e., Christians], and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you [Jews] repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel?” Justin also announced that, “We, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelite race.” - Dialogue with Trypho

Great quote Fozzy... can't get closer to the historic record of apostolic times that Mr. Martyr.

 

[fozzy]

Great quote Fozzy... can't get closer to the historic record of apostolic times that Mr. Martyr.

I found that quote on google Did you know that Mr. Martyr and the other church fathers were futurist in their prophetic beliefs and not historical? The Jesuits didn't start futurism they did. Another Adventist fairy tale down the drain. They believed that the man of sin would rebuild Jerusalem and sit in an earthly temple in the last days. The abomination of desolation would be some type of temple defilement and the Jewish people would be complicit in this. They did not see Babylon as a denomination the way you do. Causing some to believe if they belong to a different denomination it will somehow shield them or make them immune. You think it's your job to come and evangelize us but actually it's our job to come and evangelize you. You are so far into Babylon that you are downtown in the red light district with all the rebels and sinners. It's my Christian duty to warn you of these things and your Babylonian gospel of work really hard and earn heaven is going to hell with all those who cling to it.

 

[ricker]

Great quote Fozzy... can't get closer to the historic record of apostolic times that Mr. Martyr.

And interesting that Mr. Martyr wrote that he worshipped on Sunday with his fellow Christians. :

 

[ricker]

Justin Martyr (A.D. 100–165) is important in the history of supersessionism because he was the first Christian writer to explicitly identify the church as “Israel.”Justin declared, “For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham . . . are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.” He also said, “Since then God blesses this people [i.e., Christians], and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you [Jews] repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel?” Justin also announced that, “We, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelite race.” - Dialogue with Trypho

Many of the early church fathers and Protestant reformers were so anti-Jewish that when Dispensationalism gained such a following and foothold they threw out the baby with the bath water so to speak. The anti-Semitism did need to go but not the belief that the church is spiritual Israel.

Thank you. I know the Bible never mentions "Spiritual Israel", but I see at least some of the early Christians had the idea.
Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily believe the current nation of Israel has any part in God's plans. It's just that this is an Adventist forum and sometimes they use this concept to justify Christians being under certain signs and laws that were only given to the nation of Israel.

 

[ricker]

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Rom. 2:28:29

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col. 2:11

..For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom. 9:6-8

I don't see where Paul says he isn't a Jew.

You did good with your second quote!

The first passage is directed to Jews.

The second is a nice passage comparing circumcision with baptism, but not any reference to keeping the laws given to Israel. In fact it calls baptism the "circumcision of Christ", not to Israel. I guess I should have known this, since I believe that baptism should be given to infants, just as circumcision was.

Romans 9 is speaking of Israel as being the children of the Promise, which is of course Jesus. Jesus was Jewish.

 

[ricker]

Opinions are opinions and unless they are sound with the word of God, they are worth nought.

This sounds harsh but the truth is this.
What we humans have to say means nothing.

What GOd has to say means everything.
---------------------

There is no passages saying Israel is a land but Israelites took the land which is Canaan and a few other names.

Exodus 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

Exodus 13:5 And it shall be when the Lord shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites


Israel were given that land. That land was not blessed.

To be honest I really do not want to pull out passage after passage.
Read the entire old testament.

Read how the prophets constantly warned the Israelites of there end if they did not turn back to GOd.

You can read the threats again and again.

God said he will continue his covenant with Israel through Jesus.

It is very clear that GOd will scatter Israel into the nation and regather.

This is not the 1947 movement.

When GOd said he will regather he meant he will do it through jesus.

So Jesus has the Israelites now.

The Israelites are the seeed of CHrist.

It is very clear.

This is not my opinion, this is what the word of God says.

Quickly, where does the Bible say He will continue His covenant with Israel through Jesus? Not saying it isn't there. I remember something about a new covenant, not like the old.

Also, you say Israelites are the seed of Christ. I always thought Christ was the Seed of Israel.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I guess I should have known this, since I believe that baptism should be given to infants, just as circumcision was.

You are certainly entitled to believe in infant baptism but I'm surprised that someone that seeks for biblical evidence for some subjects, would hold to a baptism ceremony that is nowhere found in the scriptures.