Spiritual Deadness?

[JimfromOhio]

Can spiritually dead person work for their salvation?

 

[Van]

JimfromOhio, I agree with everything you said in your post # 140 until I reached this section:

A spiritually dead person is without the Holy Spirit, therefore we do not have the "ability" to get saved on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to prick and quicken us to be alive. Without the Holy Spirit is TOTAL DEPRAVITY". The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved.

We do not have the ability to "get saved" period. God saves us, and even if we had the influence of the Holy Spirit upon us, like happened under the Old Covenant, we could not save ourselves. And we need God's revelation - the Law leads us to Christ - and God's special revelation is the work product of the Holy Spirit, in order to 1) know that we are violating God's law, and 2) know that if we repent and place our trust in Christ God will credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us "in Christ." After we have been placed in Christ, we are also indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, so we are in Christ and Christ is in us. We are no longer separated (dead) but have been made alive together with Christ, and thus the Spirit that provided the revelation, that baptized us spiritually into Christ, and then indwells us gives us spiritual life and when Christ returns will give our mortal bodies eternal life (resurrection in glorified bodies), Romans 8:10-11.

So the Holy Spirit is the "person" of the Godhead that convicts us (pricks us) through revelation, and this is how God grants repentance. Being spiritually dead means we are separated from God and we can do nothing, being dead, to alter that separation through our own effort. It does not mean we cannot understand the milk of the gospel, or the invisible attributes of God, or that we are sinners in need of mercy. We are not "quickened" to be saved, for "quickened means being made alive, but rather when we are saved by God we are quickened, made alive, when we are united with Christ when we are spiritually placed in Christ, and arise in Christ a new creation born again by the will of God to walk in the newness of life!

The spiritual things in view in 1 Corinthians 2:14 are the spiritual things we learn with the help of our indwelt Holy Spirit, and these things cannot be learned by someone who is not yet indwelt. But if you continue reading the passage to 1 Corinthians 3:3 you will see that Paul speaks to those who have not learned yet from the Spirit, as men in the flesh, and they can understand these things which includes the milk of the gospel. Thus the RT understanding of our fallen condition "in Adam" is mistaken. We are spiritually dead, we are separated from God due to our sinful state in Adam, and we are corrupted, predisposed to sin. Our heart is wicked and every inclination of our heart is wicked, but even so we can be convicted by God's revelation, repent, and put our faith in Christ. The gospel of Christ. Note that the folks resist the Holy Spirit, they suppresss the truth, so they know the gospel, but reject the gospel and do not put their faith in Christ. That is way different from being unable to trust in Christ.

 

[JimfromOhio]

JimfromOhio, I agree with everything you said in your post # 140 until I reached this section:
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We do not have the ability to "get saved" period. God saves us, and even if we had the influence of the Holy Spirit upon us, like happened under the Old Covenant, we could not save ourselves. And we need God's revelation - the Law leads us to Christ - and God's special revelation is the work product of the Holy Spirit, in order to 1) know that we are violating God's law, and 2) know that if we repent and place our trust in Christ God will credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us "in Christ." After we have been placed in Christ, we are also indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, so we are in Christ and Christ is in us. We are no longer separated (dead) but have been made alive together with Christ, and thus the Spirit that provided the revelation, that baptized us spiritually into Christ, and then indwells us gives us spiritual life and when Christ returns will give our mortal bodies eternal life (resurrection in glorified bodies), Romans 8:10-11.

So the Holy Spirit is the "person" of the Godhead that convicts us (pricks us) through revelation, and this is how God grants repentance. Being spiritually dead means we are separated from God and we can do nothing, being dead, to alter that separation through our own effort. It does not mean we cannot understand the milk of the gospel, or the invisible attributes of God, or that we are sinners in need of mercy. We are not "quickened" to be saved, for "quickened means being made alive, but rather when we are saved by God we are quickened, made alive, when we are united with Christ when we are spiritually placed in Christ, and arise in Christ a new creation born again by the will of God to walk in the newness of life!

The spiritual things in view in 1 Corinthians 2:14 are the spiritual things we learn with the help of our indwelt Holy Spirit, and these things cannot be learned by someone who is not yet indwelt. But if you continue reading the passage to 1 Corinthians 3:3 you will see that Paul speaks to those who have not learned yet from the Spirit, as men in the flesh, and they can understand these things which includes the milk of the gospel. Thus the RT understanding of our fallen condition "in Adam" is mistaken. We are spiritually dead, we are separated from God due to our sinful state in Adam, and we are corrupted, predisposed to sin. Our heart is wicked and every inclination of our heart is wicked, but even so we can be convicted by God's revelation, repent, and put our faith in Christ. The gospel of Christ. Note that the folks resist the Holy Spirit, they suppresss the truth, so they know the gospel, but reject the gospel and do not put their faith in Christ. That is way different from being unable to trust in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake."

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

I was convicted and pricked by the Holy Spirit to "repent and accepted Christ as my savior". I did not do this alone. I was spiritually dead until the Holy Spirit came and convicted my heart. Its that simple.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes, but they won't get paid.

 

[Van]

Hi JimmyfromOhio, all the verses you presented support my view. You were convicted by the Holy Spirit through the agency of God's revelation, not a supernatural alternation of your core characteristics. You did not repent on your own, you received the gospel which is the work product of the Holy Spirit. You were spiritually dead until God credited your faith as righteousness and placed you spiritually "in Christ" where you were made alive together with Christ. Its that simple.

 

[Van]

Hi Rick, I agree completely with your post 144. Paul teaches this very truth in Romans 9:30-33. Folks who pursue the righteousness of God through works are disappointed.

 

[Rick Otto]

thanks for witness.
AndI agree with you that we do not repent of only our own volition:
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
2Tim2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Rom2:4: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

And here is WHEN God placed us "in Christ", before we were even created:
Eph1:4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[Van]

Hi Rick, thanks for agreeing with me, every one of those verses you referenced support my view. Where we may differ is in exactly how God gives or grants repentance. I think God's revelation of his salvation plan which includes both Jews and Gentiles gives repentence to the Gentiles. The goodness of God, as presented in His revelation leads us to repentence.

Turning now to when God placed us in Christ, I do not believe we existed before creation and therefore we were not placed in Christ before creation. The text does not even say God chose us as foreseen individuals to be placed in Christ, but rather says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. This means God chose Christ before the foundation of the world to be His lamb, and therefore everyone in Christ, and covered with the blood of the Lamb shares in His election before the foundation of the world. Further the verse does not say God predestined us before the foundation of the world, our predestination to our adoption as children of God, referring to our bodily resurrection at the second coming of Christ, begins when we are placed in Christ, and not before. Additionally 2 Timothy 1:9 does not say we received grace from all eternity (before creation)
but rather we received the grace after we were in Christ, and this purpose and grace was granted before creation when Christ was chosen to be His Lamb to redeem us and save us.

Here is what I believe Paul is teaching: God chose Christ to be His lamb before creation, according to His purpose of

 

[Rick Otto]

I disagree in a way with saying we did not exist before the foundation of the world. We existed not in physical reality agreed, but we existed as individuals in the mind of God as His idea of what/who He wanted to create. To think He could or would not know exactly whom He was placing "in Christ" seems to defy the definition of omniscience IMHO, Van. Why assume He didn't or wouldn't know? The only reason I can guess is to preserve the notion of freedom of the will.
Same thing with omnipresence. To say God left or withdrew, is a statement about a relationship quality, not in contradiction with the quality of omnipresence. To make it a physical fact would contradict omnipresence.
I think you're right about 2Tim1:9 in that we didn't actualy recieve the grace in our physical beings before creation, but in terms of God's purpose, in terms of His specific plans, we did recieve it back then.

 

[Van]

Hi Rick, half a loaf is better than none, may God bless you as we part company.