Spiritual Deadness?

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cygnusx1

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If someone gives you a gift for no obvious reason (no birthday, Christmas, etc.) then you were not seeking it, even though you received it. Thus, receiving does not and cannot equal seeking. The reasoning is faulty, and there is no scripture which teaches such a thing. This is made up out of whole cloth.

The faulty doctrines of the anti-RT zealots regarding Matt 13 20-22 have been shown to be unbiblical. They do not understand even the basics of agriculture, which when examined, show deeper truths in this passage.

Even though the anti-RT zealots continue to post their faulty doctrines, they have been exposed as faulty, and refuted, and nothing will change the fact that the faulty doctrines have been exposed. The Truth cannot be defeated.

:amen: bro ...... it is amazing that anyone can build a doctrine on one "interpretation" of a single text , especially when the interpretation of ONE text contradicts scores of others .

scripture is clear , NO man seeks God , no-one does good. Romans 3. EPH2
 
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nobdysfool

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How did the person give the gift. Did he hand it to the person receiving. When the person put out their hands, they sought the gift. Was the gift something the person wanted, or something the person hated? When the person reached out his or her hands to take what he or she wanted, he or she was seeking the gift.

What is seeking? What does it mean to seek?
1 : to resort to : go to
2 a : to go in search of : look for b : to try to discover
3 : to ask for : request<seeks advice>
4 : to try to acquire or gain : aim at <seek fame>

All of these imply intentional and deliberate action on the part of the seeker

Now, what does receive mean? What does it mean to receive?

1 : to come into possession of
2 a : to act as a receptacle or container for something: "the cistern receives water from the roof"

These are passive actions, the receiver is not actively seeking anything.

There is a clear difference between seeing and receiving. They are not the same thing, and cannot be made the same thing. To attempt to do so is error.

Whether or not the gift was something that was wanted is not the point and has no bearing on the matter. It is stretching and grasping for straws to say that when an unexpected gift is given, the one it is given to is "seeking" the gift by the act of holding out their hands to receive it. This shows just how far the anti-RT zealot will go to avoid admitting that he has made a grave error in interpretation.

Van said:
One of the truths that is proclaimed by Matthew 13:20-22 is that the unregenerate who receive the gospel with joy believe in God and believe God rewards those who seek Him. Therefore the RT premise of Spiritual Deadness is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:20-22. The correct understanding of the effects of the Fall upon mankind is that the result is limited spiritual ability, and the predisposition to sin.

This passage teaches nothing of the kind. This is willful avoidance and ignorance on the part of anti-RT zealots, to set aside an inconvenient Truth which undercuts and destroys their faulty doctrines. The anti-RT zealots insist that seeking is the same as receiving. This is proven false, not only by definition, but by logic and common sense. QED

The anti-RT position of limited spiritual ability is not proven true by this passage, and is proven false by Ephesians 2:1-5; Romans 3:10-12; John 6:65, and others, which clearly teach that unregenerate men are dead in sins, and cannot come to Christ unless it is granted to them by the Father, showing that the impetus for coming to Christ does not reside in the individual, but in the Father's granting and giving them to Christ. This proves the idea of "limited spiritual ability" to be a false doctrine. QED
 
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Van

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NBF said:
Receiving does not equal seeking
This is a true statement. Receiving with joy is the result of seeking. They are not equal, but cause (seeking) and effect (receiving with joy.)

To seek means to desire or crave something and therefore to strive for that something. Thus we a person receives the gospel with joy, they are seeking after God and an eternal relationship with God. QED

To receive could be passive, like someone shot from behind who "receives" the bullet, but receiving with joy is active, the result of seeking something.

Limited spiritual ability is the doctine presented in scripture. Matthew 13:1-23. Some folks have very little ability, represented by soil by the road, hardened and unable to receive the gospel, and some folks have quite a lot, represented by the good soil that has been cultivated. And some folks fall in between, they are receptive to the gospel, but unwilling to fully embrace it and discard the treasures of this world, represented by the shallow rocky soil and the weedy thorny soil. None have the ability of a born again indwelt believer in Christ, but most have enough so that the seed can be planted, watered and cultivated to the point that God causes the increase.

Ephesians 2:1-5, Romans 3, and John 6 all support limited spiritually ability and demonstrate Total Spiritual Inability to be a mistaken view of scripture. Ephesians 2:1-5 says that God (after accepting our faith) made us alive by placing us in Christ ("together with Christ") for by grace you have been saved.

Romans 3 says that by the works of the Law no flesh is justified, teaching that we all sin, so since we have violated the Law on at least one point, we have broken the whole Law, and therefore by the works of the Law we are not seeking God effectively. But if we pursue the righteousness of God by faith, we will not be disapointed, Romans 9:30-33.

No one can come to Christ unless it has been granted him by the Father, but if the Father grants the opporunity to everyone except the few chosen for another purpose, such as Judas, then this verse supports limited but sufficient spiritual ability.

The impetus of coming to Christ is God's revelation, received with our limited spiritual ability! ;)
 
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cygnusx1

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What is seeking? What does it mean to seek?
1 : to resort to : go to
2 a : to go in search of : look for b : to try to discover
3 : to ask for : request<seeks advice>
4 : to try to acquire or gain : aim at <seek fame>

All of these imply intentional and deliberate action on the part of the seeker

Now, what does receive mean? What does it mean to receive?

1 : to come into possession of
2 a : to act as a receptacle or container for something: "the cistern receives water from the roof"

These are passive actions, the receiver is not actively seeking anything.

There is a clear difference between seeing and receiving. They are not the same thing, and cannot be made the same thing. To attempt to do so is error.

Whether or not the gift was something that was wanted is not the point and has no bearing on the matter. It is stretching and grasping for straws to say that when an unexpected gift is given, the one it is given to is "seeking" the gift by the act of holding out their hands to receive it. This shows just how far the anti-RT zealot will go to avoid admitting that he has made a grave error in interpretation.



This passage teaches nothing of the kind. This is willful avoidance and ignorance on the part of anti-RT zealots, to set aside an inconvenient Truth which undercuts and destroys their faulty doctrines. The anti-RT zealots insist that seeking is the same as receiving. This is proven false, not only by definition, but by logic and common sense. QED

The anti-RT position of limited spiritual ability is not proven true by this passage, and is proven false by Ephesians 2:1-5; Romans 3:10-12; John 6:65, and others, which clearly teach that unregenerate men are dead in sins, and cannot come to Christ unless it is granted to them by the Father, showing that the impetus for coming to Christ does not reside in the individual, but in the Father's granting and giving them to Christ. This proves the idea of "limited spiritual ability" to be a false doctrine. QED

another great post bro! :amen:


wait for the , yes , but .........................
 
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Van

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Receiving with joy is the result of seeking. They are not equal, but rather cause (seeking) and effect (receiving with joy.)

To seek means to desire or crave something and therefore to strive for that something. Thus when a person receives the gospel with joy, they are seeking after God and an eternal relationship with God.
 
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Van

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Limited spiritual ability is the doctine presented in scripture. Matthew 13:1-23. Some folks have very little ability, represented by soil by the road, hardened and unable to receive the gospel, and some folks have quite a lot, represented by the good soil that has been cultivated. And some folks fall in between, they are receptive to the gospel, but unwilling to fully embrace it and discard the treasures of this world, represented by the shallow rocky soil and the weedy thorny soil. None have the ability of a born again indwelt believer in Christ, but most have enough so that the seed can be planted, watered and cultivated to the point that God causes the increase.

No one can come to Christ unless it has been granted him by the Father, but if the Father grants the opporunity to everyone except the few chosen for another purpose, such as Judas, then this verse supports limited but sufficient spiritual ability.

The impetus of coming to Christ is God's revelation, received with our limited spiritual ability!
 
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Van

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Van said:
Receiving with joy is the result of seeking.

Cyg said:
prove it!


I have explained it, and I am confident the premise is valid. Receiving with joy is the result of seeking. They are not equal, but rather cause (seeking) and effect (receiving with joy.) To seek means to desire or crave something and therefore to strive for that something. Thus when a person receives the gospel with joy, they are seeking after God and an eternal relationship with God.
 
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cygnusx1

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[/size][/font]

I have explained it, and I am confident the premise is valid. Receiving with joy is the result of seeking. They are not equal, but rather cause (seeking) and effect (receiving with joy.) To seek means to desire or crave something and therefore to strive for that something. Thus when a person receives the gospel with joy, they are seeking after God and an eternal relationship with God.


that is nothing more than reading your position back into the text , a common fallacy.

We don't need a definition of what seek means , we know what it means :D

what is needed is your view which is under scrutiny , being found in scripture , thus far , F for failure.

show where those who "received with joy" were seeking ....... scripture maintains no man does good no man seeks God ... and God predicted He would be found by those who didn't seek Him! which obviously cuts your view in pieces.
 
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Van

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That some unregenerate men seek God is demonstrated by Matthew 13:20-22. When a person receives the gospel with joy, that is the result of desiring eternal life with God.

Cyg said:
scripture maintains no man does good no man seeks God ... and God predicted He would be found by those who didn't seek Him! which obviously cuts your view in pieces.
Scripture maintains that no man seeks God in the manner specified, i.e. by the works of the law because by the law no flesh is justified. Similarly efforts to earn salvation by doing deeds of righteousness are to no avail, because no man is "good" holy and therefore the work product of unholy men is filthy rags to God. But in this fallen condition, if we put our full trust in Christ, God will credit our faith as righteousness, and spiritually place us in Christ forever.
 
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cygnusx1

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That some unregenerate men seek God is demonstrated by Matthew 13:20-22. When a person receives the gospel with joy, that is the result of desiring eternal life with God.

shown many (Dozens ?) times now to be a false inclusion into the text.

Scripture maintains that no man seeks God in the manner specified, i.e. by the works of the law because by the law no flesh is justified. Similarly efforts to earn salvation by doing deeds of righteousness are to no avail, because no man is "good" holy and therefore the work product of unholy men is filthy rags to God. But in this fallen condition, if we put our full trust in Christ, God will credit our faith as righteousness, and spiritually place us in Christ forever.

well if that's the best you can do ......... :D

the truth is many men do in fact seek God this way ..... by works of the Law!

Romans 10

1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.


but no-man seeks God as God.

Scripture states that no man does good ....... that appears in the same passage as no man seeks God , for obvious reasons !
 
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Van

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Cyg said:
shown many (Dozens ?) times now to be a false inclusion into the text.

It have seen the assertion several times, but nothing offered suggests how a person could receive the gospel with joy unless they desired to receive the gospel, hence receiving the gospel with joy is the result of seeking the blessings of God.

Cyg said:
the truth is many men do in fact seek God this way ..... by works of the Law!
And so total spiritual inability is demonstrated false because they believe God exists and they believe God rewards those who seek Him, but they put their reliance upon their works rather than God's grace through faith in Christ.

Cyg said:
but no-man seeks God as God.
No man seeks God by the method of doing works of the Law, because by the works of the Law no flesh is justified. But if we seek the righteousness of God by faith, we will not be disappointed, Romans 9:30-33.

Cyg said:
Scripture states that no man does good ....... that appears in the same passage as no man seeks God , for obvious reasons !
Yes, no man does good because nothing done by unholy men is good for earning salvation, yet men can obtain approval through faith, because it is God who credits our faith as righteousness.
 
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cygnusx1

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It have seen the assertion several times, but nothing offered suggests how a person could receive the gospel with joy unless they desired to receive the gospel, hence receiving the gospel with joy is the result of seeking the blessings of God.

And so total spiritual inability is demonstrated false because they believe God exists and they believe God rewards those who seek Him, but they put their reliance upon their works rather than God's grace through faith in Christ.


No man seeks God by the method of doing works of the Law, because by the works of the Law no flesh is justified. But if we seek the righteousness of God by faith, we will not be disappointed, Romans 9:30-33.


Yes, no man does good because nothing done by unholy men is good for earning salvation, yet men can obtain approval through faith, because it is God who credits our faith as righteousness.

this has to be about the worst post I have read since my time here in soteriology . I have contemplated the last few posts here in this thread over the last few days and what becomes clear is just how far your ideas are from mainstream Evangelical doctrine.

This is a disappointment and does not bode well for any future interaction.

There is something of a habit being formed where you read something in scripture and in the name of giving it context , the actual statement of truth is absolutely denied and contradicted ..... ie, 'That which does not proceed from faith is sin' ; 'God works All things together for good etc ; 'no man seeks God ' ; and 'No man does good' ...... these are truths that are accepted because that is EXACTLY and precisely what scripture says , and no amount of "contextualising" can bring these truths to say otherwise.


the same goes for Genesis 6 where men are said to sin continually .


Looking over the history of theology it is crystal clear that your views (which are shared by a few) are not new , but the interesting thing is seeing that these "theories" are not even Arminian !

On the one hand one may expect your views to be anti-Reformed judging by your postal style , on the other hand your views are even extremely far removed from classical Arminians like John Wesley.

Here is a sermon by John Wesley , a 'prince' amongst Arminians , yet how far your doctrine drifts , from not just Reformed but also Arminian Christians can be seen by reading carefully this sermon.


Original Sin

By John Wesley

Sermon 44

(text from the 1872 edition - Thomas Jackson, editor)

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Genesis 6:5

http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/44/


Finally , and sadly I am almost certain that the only group throughout Church history who held similar theories were known as the Socinians , and they were a very liberal heterodox group.
 
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Van

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Receiving the gospel with joy is the result of desiring salvation, and therefore the person both believes God exists and believes God rewards those who seek Him.

Accepting the contextual meaning of a verse within the author's argument is sound, whereas selectively quoting snipets of verses, to support a position is unsound.

Matthew 13:20-21 demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is a mistaken view of scripture, that people are able in their fallen unholy sinful state to believe God exists and rewards those who seek Him. 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 also demonstrates men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. Ditto for Hebrews 6:4-6 where unregenerates are enlightened, meaning they heard and understood the gospel, but then rejected it, indicating they were unregenerate. In verse after verse, the doctrine is demonstrated to be a mistaken view of scripture. Romans 9:16 indicates an unregenerate can "will" to be saved.

The bottom line is this, the verses asserted by RT to demonstrate Total Spiritual Inability do not support the premise, whereas many other verses indicate the premise is invalid. Take John 1:5, and the practice of RT advocates listing it as supporting that unregenerates cannot understand or comprehend the light of Christ. But this is supporting doctrine based on flawed translation, what the verse actually says is that darkness could not overcome the light. And therefore, verse 9 makes sense because the light "enlightens everyman" would not make any sense if the world could not understand the light, but it makes perfect sense if the darkness cannot overcome the light.

Building an understanding based on context is both sound and necessary to avoid mistaken views of scripture.
 
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cygnusx1

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^ still continuing with the fallacy that man is good , that man can do good , and that men seek GOD .........and so it must be.


Original Sin

By John Wesley


Sermon 44

(text from the 1872 edition - Thomas Jackson, editor)

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Genesis 6:5

http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/44/
 
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Van

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Fallen mankind is separated from God due to being "in Adam" which is a metaphor for being in an unholy sinful state as a consequence of Adam's sin. Being Spiritually Dead is not only a metaphor for being separated from God, as the physically dead are separated from the living, but also refers to fallen mankinds corruption, predisposed to sin volitionally. Hence we are dead in our sins and tresspasses. But this condition does not result in being unable to understand some spiritual things, such as described in Romans 1, and being able to understand the milk of the gospel, as described in 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

In our fallen state, we have a wicked heart, and therefore our inclinations of our heart are continually wicked, but that does not indicate we cannot believe God exists and that God rewards those who seek Him. Note that in Genesis 6:8, Noah found favor in the eyes of God, even though his every inclination of heart was wicked. Sound doctrine must be based on contextual understanding, not selectively chosen snipets of scripture.
 
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cygnusx1

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Fallen mankind is separated from God due to being "in Adam" which is a metaphor for being in an unholy sinful state as a consequence of Adam's sin. Being Spiritually Dead is not only a metaphor for being separated from God, as the physically dead are separated from the living, but also refers to fallen mankinds corruption, predisposed to sin volitionally. Hence we are dead in our sins and tresspasses. But this condition does not result in being unable to understand some spiritual things, such as described in Romans 1, and being able to understand the milk of the gospel, as described in 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

In our fallen state, we have a wicked heart, and therefore our inclinations of our heart are continually wicked, but that does not indicate we cannot believe God exists and that God rewards those who seek Him. Note that in Genesis 6:8, Noah found favor in the eyes of God, even though his every inclination of heart was wicked. Sound doctrine must be based on contextual understanding, not selectively chosen snipets of scripture.

inadequate summation of man in his fallen state , go here for a true assessment.

EPHESIANS 2.........
 
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cygnusx1

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The Biblical Evidence for the Bondage of the Will

The one thing that Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Arminianism and Roman Catholicism have in common is the idea that after the fall man still has the ability to think, do or will spiritual good; that man still has a “free will.” “This is the Helen whom they so ardently love and for whom they do not hesitate to fight as for their altars and firesides.”[13]Such a view shades their whole doctrine of salvation. Therefore, it is extremely important that we carefully establish the biblical teaching that man’s heart is spiritually dead because of the fall and so thoroughly corrupt spiritually that the unsaved sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God.
In order to deal with the question of “free will” we need to carefully define two terms. First, what do we mean when we speak of the human will? Second, how do we define the freedom that is attributed to this will? These questions are important because: (a) Many people assume that the will is some entity that is independent of the human heart; (b) The Augustinian or Calvinistic position is almost always misrepresented by Arminians as holding that men are mere robots. We will see that the Bible upholds the validity and freedom of man’s decisions as secondary agents; yet, also teaches that every person’s choices are determined by the heart.
Although there are many different definitions of the term will, this term in the context of the debate over free choice or determination refers to volition or a choice of the mind. When people discuss the soul or heart of man they often will speak of different aspects of the soul such as the intellect, the emotions and the will. Indeed, it is proper to think of the will as a function or part of the human mind. Therefore, as we consider the subject of “free will” we must not separate the will from the intellect or mind as if it has some independent power. The debate over “free will” cannot be settled unless we understand that the will always decides in accordance with the mind or, as Scripture puts it, the inclinations of the heart (Pr. 4:23; Lk. 6:45; Mt. 7:17, 21). “[T]he decision of the intellect is terminated in the will, so the liberty of the will has its roots in the intellect.”[14]
For example, when a man decides to go to the refrigerator to get a piece of pizza he exercises his will. This act of the will, however, did not occur spontaneously or in a vacuum. Before the act of the will the mind received hunger pangs from the stomach; the mind thought about the food options available; the mind decided what food it preferred (this choice was based in part on culture, habit, availability and ease of preparation) and this choice terminated with an act of the will. The will had a prior reason, argument and motivation to get the pizza. If that person’s mind did not like onions but did like pepperoni, then that person would never choose onion pizza but rather would always choose pepperoni pizza in such an incident. The man’s will was free to choose onions; but his will was subservient to this mind which did not like onions. The mind chose something else instead. Similarly, a lion in Africa is free to eat grass when it is hungry. But it never does so, because lions by nature are carnivorous. Their minds crave meat. A water buffalo is also free to eat whatever it desires. But it only chooses grass because it is in the buffalo’s nature to do so.
Now that we have an understanding of the will (that the human will is not an independent force but rather always follows the mind) we can begin to understand human freedom. On the one hand we can in accordance with Scripture and experience affirm that man is truly a free agent. As beings which are created in the image of God with rationality and intelligence men are valid secondary agents that are free to make choices. Men are not puppets, robots or impersonal machines. Men have the ability to observe, evaluate, deliberate in the mind and then choose between a, b, c, or d. Men are not coerced by anything outside of themselves to choose something they do not want to choose. If this is a person’s definition of “free will,” then we can agree and say that people have a free will. Unfortunately, this definition is not what the proponents of “free will” have in mind.
While in one sense we can say that man has a free will (i.e. men are free to choose and are not coerced by outside forces), in another sense we can say that man’s will is not free. Men are free to choose whatever they want; but, because of the fall, man’s heart or soul is thoroughly corrupt. If, as we have previously demonstrated, the will always follows the mind or heart, then a corrupt heart will not and cannot choose spiritually good things. The will of man always acts in accordance with his sinful nature. This is not simply the opinion of someone like Augustine, Luther or Calvin but is the explicit teaching of Scripture. Jesus says, “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks” (Lk. 6:45). A man’s outward life is a reflection of what is in his heart. Men speak and do evil deeds because they are by nature evil. Thus, Solomon warns believers, “Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it spring the issues of life” (Pr. 4:23). “For from within, out of the heart, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders…” (Mk. 7:21).
Christ says that the source of sinful thoughts and acts is the heart, not the will. The will carries out the desires, inclinations, habits, etc of the heart. Thus, in the Sermon on the Mount our Lord teaches that “a bad tree bears bad fruit” (Mt. 7:7). “Heart” in the Bible refers to the innermost core of man’s being. It includes the whole human nature (i.e. the mind, will, intellect, emotions, etc). So, although man is at liberty to choose whatever he desires, since his heart is evil, he will only choose between greater and lesser evil. Those outwardly good deeds that he does do are not prompted by love for God and thus are not spiritually good. “Why does the sinner choose a life of sinful indulgence? Because he prefers it, all arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, though of course he does not prefer the effects of such a course. And why does he prefer it? Because his heart is sinful.”[15] Boettner writes: “Man is a free agent but he cannot originate the love of God in his heart. His will is free in the sense that it is not controlled by any force outside of himself. As the bird with a broken wing is ‘free’ to fly but not able, so the natural man is free to come to God but not able. How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates Him? This is the inability of the will under which man labors.”[16]


http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/Total Depravity revised.htm
 
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Van

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Ephesians 2 teaches exactly the condition I presented in post #116.

The one thing bible students have in common is an acceptance of scriptural doctrine, which as unregenerate folks believing in God and seeking God as taught by Matthew 13:20-21. God gave man the ability to exercise his will autonomously within the varible boundries established by God.

Asserting that fallen mankind is blind and deaf to all spiritual things in light of scripture teaching unregenerate folks were zealous for God is unbiblical.

The bible does not teach that every decision of fallen mankind is determined by the wicked inclinations of their corrupted heart.

The debate over “free will” cannot be settled unless we understand that the will always decides in accordance with the mind or, as Scripture puts it, the inclinations of the heart (Pr. 4:23; Lk. 6:45; Mt. 7:17, 21)
Proverbs 4:23 says nothing about always deciding according to the wicked inclinations of the heart. Rather it says we are to watch over it, indicating the capacity of thought independent of wicked inclinations. So Proverbs 4:23 actually demonstrates my position is the biblical position.

Luke 6:45, in context teaches that in our fallen unregenerate state we cannot bring forth good fruit. Same idea as is presented in John 15:5 which says unless we are born again and indwelt forever (Christ abiding in us) we cannot produce fruit. But to take this truth and extrapolate the idea to we cannot put our faith in Christ is invalid. The idea is not that unregenerates only have wicked thoughts and do wicked things, but rather that even when we do works of righteousness such as keeping parts of the Law, God sees our works as filthy rags. Therefore Luke 6:45 does not support the premise is the slightest.

Matthew 7:17 comes in the middle of an account (Matthew 7:14-21) of Jesus casting out a demon from the son of a man who came to Jesus and begged for mercy. Jesus, who knew what is in the man's heart, knew that the man had doubts that Jesus could heal his son because Christ's disciples had tried and failed to heal his son. Therefore Christ says, "you unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you, how long shall I put up with you" admonishing the man and those in the audience to put their trust fully in Christ. But, even though the man's faith was flawed, the man believed in Christ's ability and believe Christ might be able to heal his son, demonstrating the premise is not only not supported, is actually demonstrated false by the very passage offered in its defense.

Matthew 17:21 is non-germaine, and is bracketed indicating some early manuscripts do not contain the verse, so it is possible the verse is an uninspired addition to the text by a copiest. In any event, the verse does not even address the concept of the premise.

In sum, the bible provides no support for the premise, and actually demonstates the premise is invalid.

And in the same way, Matthew 7:17 (not 7:7 which is a typo) indicates everything a fallen man does is without merit, but does not indicate everything a fallen man does is not an effort to seek a right relationship with God. Thus if we seek God by faith, God credits our unmeritorious faith as righteousness.

"Heart" does not indicate our who human nature, for we are to watchover our heart. Every inclination of the thoughts of our heart are wicked, but because we are aware of God, we can turn from our corruption to God, we can build our house on the rock, Matthew 7:24-25.

The above post says we only choose between greater and lesser evils, but the bible says God sets before us a choice between life and death. So again, the assertion is directly contradicted by scripture.

At the end of the day, no scripture has been offered to support that fallen man cannot seek God, believe in God, and pursue the righteousness of God by faith, which is what Matthew 13:20-21 teaches.
 
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cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
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At the end of the day, no scripture has been offered to support that fallen man cannot seek God, believe in God, and pursue the righteousness of God by faith, which is what Matthew 13:20-21 teaches.

you are in denial.
 
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