Spiritual Abuse

angeltrue

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I'm writing an article on spiritual abuse. My husband and I encountered it in a church we tried, and I later experienced it on (another) Christian forum.

I've found the authoritarian abuse by leaders in varying positions in the church and on forums, is often confusing, and we don't recognize what it is right away. Sensitive spirits are wounded by professing Christians, who don't seem to care that they inflict pain, and insist their hurtful actions shouldn't be questioned.

It is my belief that spiritual abuse is a severe form of pride, and is a sin and that Christian leaders will do almost anything to keep their sin, and the truth about themselves hidden.

I did cursory research and learned that spiritual abuse is widespread, and I'd like to get feedback from other believers, as to whether they have experienced it or not. I'm including some signs of spiritual abuse:

The following are several signs of spiritual abuse:
  • Stating personal religious convictions and preferences as fact for everyone
  • Religious convictions and preferences are stated as black and white
  • Requirements for church attendance
  • Dress and clothing requirements (appearance is a priority)
  • Closed minded about different interpretations of Scripture
  • Misinterpretations of scripture
  • Questioning the leaders is discouraged
  • Judging others
  • Excessive gossip
  • Hostility towards “heathens” and others who are not believers
  • Only people who go to a certain church are believers
  • Only reading a certain Bible version is allowed
  • Sexuality is seen as dirty, bad, and/or sinful
  • Strict discipline standards for children
  • Promoting spanking above all other forms of discipline
  • Guilt trips for taking vacation and missing church
  • Teaching Tithing
  • Emphasis on traditions
  • Music standards
  • Performance appraisals
  • Push towards perfection
  • Required devotional or quiet time
  • Levels or degrees of spirituality
  • Focusing on the penalty for sinning
  • Emphasis on God “chastening” you
  • Looking down on people who have left the church or denomination
  • Requiring a refusal of medical services
  • Required membership
  • Discarding psychology
  • Mental health issues are considered sinful or non-existent
  • Depression/Anxiety considered a sin
  • Your not spiritual enough if something bad happens to you
  • God is judging you for sin in your life
  • Being told “You need more faith” or “You don’t have enough faith”
  • Child discipline tactics that include warnings about God’s wrath
  • Rigid black and white thinking/answers to questions
  • Too much emphasis on the spiritual and not enough emphasis on the physical
  • Fears about the punishments of God
  • Negative messages about sexuality
  • Taught to deny the apatites of the body
  • Emphasis on reading the Bible and praying heavily to appease God and avoid punishment
  • Messages that you aren’t spiritual enough
  • Your “suffering” (whatever it may be) is a result of some sin in your life
  • Your physical illness is punishment for some sin in your life
 

SkyWriting

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I'm writing an article on spiritual abuse. My husband and I encountered it in a church we tried, and I later experienced it on (another) Christian forum.

I've found the authoritarian abuse by leaders in varying positions in the church and on forums, is often confusing, and we don't recognize what it is right away. Sensitive spirits are wounded by professing Christians, who don't seem to care that they inflict pain, and insist their hurtful actions shouldn't be questioned.

It is my belief that spiritual abuse is a severe form of pride, and is a sin and that Christian leaders will do almost anything to keep their sin, and the truth about themselves hidden.

I did cursory research and learned that spiritual abuse is widespread, and I'd like to get feedback from other believers, as to whether they have experienced it or not. I'm including some signs of spiritual abuse:

The following are several signs of spiritual abuse:
  • Stating personal religious convictions and preferences as fact for everyone
  • Religious convictions and preferences are stated as black and white
  • Requirements for church attendance
  • Dress and clothing requirements (appearance is a priority)
  • Closed minded about different interpretations of Scripture
  • Misinterpretations of scripture
  • Questioning the leaders is discouraged
  • Judging others
  • Excessive gossip
  • Hostility towards “heathens” and others who are not believers
  • Only people who go to a certain church are believers
  • Only reading a certain Bible version is allowed
  • Sexuality is seen as dirty, bad, and/or sinful
  • Strict discipline standards for children
  • Promoting spanking above all other forms of discipline
  • Guilt trips for taking vacation and missing church
  • Teaching Tithing
  • Emphasis on traditions
  • Music standards
  • Performance appraisals
  • Push towards perfection
  • Required devotional or quiet time
  • Levels or degrees of spirituality
  • Focusing on the penalty for sinning
  • Emphasis on God “chastening” you
  • Looking down on people who have left the church or denomination
  • Requiring a refusal of medical services
  • Required membership
  • Discarding psychology
  • Mental health issues are considered sinful or non-existent
  • Depression/Anxiety considered a sin
  • Your not spiritual enough if something bad happens to you
  • God is judging you for sin in your life
  • Being told “You need more faith” or “You don’t have enough faith”
  • Child discipline tactics that include warnings about God’s wrath
  • Rigid black and white thinking/answers to questions
  • Too much emphasis on the spiritual and not enough emphasis on the physical
  • Fears about the punishments of God
  • Negative messages about sexuality
  • Taught to deny the apatites of the body
  • Emphasis on reading the Bible and praying heavily to appease God and avoid punishment
  • Messages that you aren’t spiritual enough
  • Your “suffering” (whatever it may be) is a result of some sin in your life
  • Your physical illness is punishment for some sin in your life

Some of those things are present to some extent in every church.
It seems your list was influenced by non-religious sources.
If you can back up each complaint with a scriptural reference
then we'd have the groundwork for discussion.

Otherwise, some of it just seems like sour grapes.
 
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PloverWing

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Not all of these are abusive. Some of the ones about requirements for membership or particular spiritual practices (required membership, required devotional time, required attendance, music standards, teaching tithing) are stricter than my church is, and I might disagree with them, but they're not abusive, they're just strict.

I'm thinking, by comparison, of the martial arts dojo I belong to. There's required attendance, and required performance standards, and a required membership fee, but it's not abusive; it's a particular physical discipline that I choose. A church, or a religious order, might similarly demand particular spiritual disciplines of its members, and I might disagree with those, but it's not abusive if it's freely chosen and working towards a desired spiritual goal.

How did you choose these particular items for the list? Do you see them as all being harmful?
 
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PeterDona

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This list? : Healing Spiritual Abuse

Well, I agree with Sky that some of these are almost ok, but most of the things are pretty bad. However, I guess that immature believers go through almost the whole list at some point.

I did see spiritual abuse in those churches I was most wholehearted about. Maybe it is the immaturity, lack of theological training, lack of mature overseers etc. But to be honest, I was not a good person myself. I realise that now with my older age, and God having imputed some repentance in me (!)
 
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angeltrue

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Some of those things are present to some extent in every church.
It seems your list was influenced by non-religious sources.
If you can back up each complaint with a scriptural reference
then we'd have the groundwork for discussion.

Otherwise, some of it just seems like sour grapes.
Hi Sky!

I got the list from a Christian website. I know that isn't a gold-plated guarantee that the points are solid though. I do know spiritual abuse is a phenomena - I lived through it. I just started research on it, but I'll post one scripture verse I found that some believers think applies.

"‘Thus says the Lord God, “Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them."
 
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PloverWing

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I do agree that spiritual abuse happens, and is something Christians should pay attention to, even though I dispute some of the specific entries on the list of symptoms. I've seen pastors manipulate their congregations with fear and guilt to extract money from them, and both clergy and lay people can damage others with the power they wield in churches.
 
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Phil 1:21

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I'm trying to imagine what a church would be like devoid of all those bullet points. Maybe a giant room full of fluffy hypoallergenic bunnies where everyone just pets them and thinks happy thoughts. We certainly couldn't teach anything Biblical. I mean, the first two points eliminate that all together.
 
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angeltrue

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Not all of these are abusive. Some of the ones about requirements for membership or particular spiritual practices (required membership, required devotional time, required attendance, music standards, teaching tithing) are stricter than my church is, and I might disagree with them, but they're not abusive, they're just strict.

I'm thinking, by comparison, of the martial arts dojo I belong to. There's required attendance, and required performance standards, and a required membership fee, but it's not abusive; it's a particular physical discipline that I choose. A church, or a religious order, might similarly demand particular spiritual disciplines of its members, and I might disagree with those, but it's not abusive if it's freely chosen and working towards a desired spiritual goal.

How did you choose these particular items for the list? Do you see them as all being harmful?
Hi PloverWing,

I agree, some of the points are iffy, and don't rise to the level of "abuse." I attended a strict Reformed church years ago, and they were very strict, but I would never call them abusive.

The one symptom, which I have consistently come across on the several Christian articles I've found is the decree laid down that there is to be no questioning any decision of those in an "authoritative role."

I think this type of demand *is* abusive, often self-serving, and much mischief can be made by those who refuse to consider that a decision made by them can be wrong. I see it as a root of pride. How do others see it?
 
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angeltrue

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Not all of these are abusive. Some of the ones about requirements for membership or particular spiritual practices (required membership, required devotional time, required attendance, music standards, teaching tithing) are stricter than my church is, and I might disagree with them, but they're not abusive, they're just strict.

I'm thinking, by comparison, of the martial arts dojo I belong to. There's required attendance, and required performance standards, and a required membership fee, but it's not abusive; it's a particular physical discipline that I choose. A church, or a religious order, might similarly demand particular spiritual disciplines of its members, and I might disagree with those, but it's not abusive if it's freely chosen and working towards a desired spiritual goal.

How did you choose these particular items for the list? Do you see them as all being harmful?
Sorry PloverWing, I missed the last half of what you wrote. That's a good analogy with martial arts - my husband took martial arts years ago too.

I picked that list randomly.
 
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angeltrue

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This list? : Healing Spiritual Abuse

Well, I agree with Sky that some of these are almost ok, but most of the things are pretty bad. However, I guess that immature believers go through almost the whole list at some point.

I did see spiritual abuse in those churches I was most wholehearted about. Maybe it is the immaturity, lack of theological training, lack of mature overseers etc. But to be honest, I was not a good person myself. I realise that now with my older age, and God having imputed some repentance in me (!)
Hi Peter,

So you don't think that you experienced true spiritual abuse, you think that the fault lied within you? (Or somewhere in between!?)

I like your humble attitude. I think what you said is important - we have to take the time and search our own heart as we ask God to search us: "...And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalm 139:24

At what point would you think that the fault did't lie within you, but in another?

I'm working through my own beliefs on this, and would like to know others' experiences.
 
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angeltrue

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I'm trying to imagine what a church would be like devoid of all those bullet points. Maybe a giant room full of fluffy hypoallergenic bunnies where everyone just pets them and thinks happy thoughts. We certainly couldn't teach anything Biblical. I mean, the first two points eliminate that all together.
Hi Jay,

I smiled at your depiction of fluffy white rabbits. Of course there has to be order in church. But ~At what point is a line crossed?~

It seems the list is too comprehensive. I'll look for a better one.

The experience I had at a church, was three pastors who deeply hurt someone I care about. It's complicated, but to condense it, the leaders ostracized her because she had attended Catholic school. I hadn't known how anti-Catholic they were, and it confused me. The pastors deeply hurt my friend, without remorse, which puzzled me because Christ's central message is love.

When I questioned the pastors' actions, they told me they were the church leaders, and that God put them in that position. They refused to discuss their decision; it was cut and dry - they held the position and they held the power. They presumed their decisions were inerrant, and the three of them supported each other in this belief (something I noted: there are usually two or more people involved in spiritual abuse who feed off each other. In both times I encountered spiritual abuse, the leaders refused to discuss their decision with other believers, or agree to additional oversight by impartial believers.)

Those pastors basically destroyed my friend's faith - who now refuses to go in any church but a Catholic church, if she goes to any at all. I later read the term for it: spiritual abuse.
 
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archer75

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For the OP: yeah, a few of these on their own are not necessarily abusive, exactly. BUT if you have a place where a lot or most of them are present in spades, yeah, probably abusive.

I knew a church that was heavily into "spanking," though I would call their version "beating". Man, the brutality some of my relatives put into those beatings was like nothing I have seen since.

Any place that has a cultish atmosphere, regardless of the name on the door, should be avoided. Any place that is decent but has a pastor who, say, tells anyone whosse spouse died that God killed him / her to punish the surviving spouse for not being nice to the pastor needs some pastor-changing.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Hi Jay,

I smiled at your depiction of fluffy white rabbits. Of course there has to be order in church. But ~At what point is a line crossed?~

It seems the list is too comprehensive. I'll look for a better one.

The experience I had at a church, was three pastors who deeply hurt someone I care about. It's complicated, but to condense it, the leaders ostracized her because she had attended Catholic school. I hadn't known how anti-Catholic they were, and it confused me. The pastors deeply hurt my friend, without remorse, which puzzled me because Christ's central message is love.

When I questioned the pastors' actions, they told me they were the church leaders, and that God put them in that position. They refused to discuss their decision; it was cut and dry - they held the position and they held the power. They presumed their decisions were inerrant, and the three of them supported each other in this belief (something I noted: there are usually two or more people involved in spiritual abuse who feed off each other. In both times I encountered spiritual abuse, the leaders refused to discuss their decision with other believers, or agree to additional oversight by impartial believers.)

Those pastors basically destroyed my friend's faith - who now refuses to go in any church but a Catholic church, if she goes to any at all. I later read the term for it: spiritual abuse.

That is absolutely horrible. I hope your friend knows that this person is not an accurate representative of Christ.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi Sky!

I got the list from a Christian website. I know that isn't a gold-plated guarantee that the points are solid though. I do know spiritual abuse is a phenomena - I lived through it. I just started research on it, but I'll post one scripture verse I found that some believers think applies.

"‘Thus says the Lord God, “Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them."
If you can back up each complaint with a scriptural reference
then we'd have the groundwork for discussion

I can't complain about quiet time. It's solidly scriptural.
 
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noam burde

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I'm writing an article on spiritual abuse. My husband and I encountered it in a church we tried, and I later experienced it on (another) Christian forum.

I've found the authoritarian abuse by leaders in varying positions in the church and on forums, is often confusing, and we don't recognize what it is right away. Sensitive spirits are wounded by professing Christians, who don't seem to care that they inflict pain, and insist their hurtful actions shouldn't be questioned.

It is my belief that spiritual abuse is a severe form of pride, and is a sin and that Christian leaders will do almost anything to keep their sin, and the truth about themselves hidden.

I did cursory research and learned that spiritual abuse is widespread, and I'd like to get feedback from other believers, as to whether they have experienced it or not. I'm including some signs of spiritual abuse:

The following are several signs of spiritual abuse:
  • Stating personal religious convictions and preferences as fact for everyone
  • Religious convictions and preferences are stated as black and white
  • Requirements for church attendance
  • Dress and clothing requirements (appearance is a priority)
  • Closed minded about different interpretations of Scripture
  • Misinterpretations of scripture
  • Questioning the leaders is discouraged
  • Judging others
  • Excessive gossip
  • Hostility towards “heathens” and others who are not believers
  • Only people who go to a certain church are believers
  • Only reading a certain Bible version is allowed
  • Sexuality is seen as dirty, bad, and/or sinful
  • Strict discipline standards for children
  • Promoting spanking above all other forms of discipline
  • Guilt trips for taking vacation and missing church
  • Teaching Tithing
  • Emphasis on traditions
  • Music standards
  • Performance appraisals
  • Push towards perfection
  • Required devotional or quiet time
  • Levels or degrees of spirituality
  • Focusing on the penalty for sinning
  • Emphasis on God “chastening” you
  • Looking down on people who have left the church or denomination
  • Requiring a refusal of medical services
  • Required membership
  • Discarding psychology
  • Mental health issues are considered sinful or non-existent
  • Depression/Anxiety considered a sin
  • Your not spiritual enough if something bad happens to you
  • God is judging you for sin in your life
  • Being told “You need more faith” or “You don’t have enough faith”
  • Child discipline tactics that include warnings about God’s wrath
  • Rigid black and white thinking/answers to questions
  • Too much emphasis on the spiritual and not enough emphasis on the physical
  • Fears about the punishments of God
  • Negative messages about sexuality
  • Taught to deny the apatites of the body
  • Emphasis on reading the Bible and praying heavily to appease God and avoid punishment
  • Messages that you aren’t spiritual enough
  • Your “suffering” (whatever it may be) is a result of some sin in your life
  • Your physical illness is punishment for some sin in your life

I have also experienced this. in every church or forum I have been. also in non religious and other religions places and forums. that's just how people are in general...
jesus warned us in matthew 7:
“13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
and also:
"21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "

so we should not expect much from people in general. only from our self.
 
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angeltrue

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For the OP: yeah, a few of these on their own are not necessarily abusive, exactly. BUT if you have a place where a lot or most of them are present in spades, yeah, probably abusive.

I knew a church that was heavily into "spanking," though I would call their version "beating". Man, the brutality some of my relatives put into those beatings was like nothing I have seen since.

Any place that has a cultish atmosphere, regardless of the name on the door, should be avoided. Any place that is decent but has a pastor who, say, tells anyone whosse spouse died that God killed him / her to punish the surviving spouse for not being nice to the pastor needs some pastor-changing.

Hengesthora,

You have a grasp on it - and you made an important point, "...regardless of the name on the door..."

The promotion of beating like that is unthinkable. We watched ID last night, about Warren Jeffs, the head of some Mormon church, and he "selectively" beat on people. His brother was interviewed, and said he loved power.

*Power is at the root of spiritual abuse.

There is something to be learned by Warren Jeffs. He was put into a position of authority in the church, and he wanted unquestioned obedience, and wielded scripture like a club to beat down anyone who questioned him.

*Utilizing scripture concepts of "submission" they abuse others, and if the individual questions them they are told they "refuse to submit to authority," and point the finger at someone who questions their actions. This is dangerous.

Jeffs then, with his privileged status, began using people like objects because no one questioned him. He was the headmaster of the school, and selected one boy in the class, and would walk him down to the lavatory and molest him. Hearing the victim, now an adult, tearfully tell what happened to him, was heartbreaking.

Why didn't any adult discern what was going on with Jeffs? They dutifully acquiesced to his every demand, even to discarding all their children's toys, and other odd demands. He took his pick from the young girls, and "married" 12-year-olds. They later found he was involved in child inappropriate content.

I read that spiritual abuse is widespread, and I think sometimes we don't always recognize what it is right away. It is very very dangerous to not have oversight of people placed in positions of authority over others.

"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
 
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angeltrue

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That is absolutely horrible. I hope your friend knows that this person is not an accurate representative of Christ.
Thanks Jay. I hope that someday she does see this, but it's been 15 years, and she adamantly refuses to go to any church but Catholic. She has an aversion to all other churches, and I can't blame her. She is close to God, however; I believe much closer to God than those pastors.

My husband & I ended up leaving that church. The pastors didn't seem to care who they hurt. I believe this is a hallmark of spiritual abuse also, the callousness. We should be concerned when those in positions of authority hurt others without remorse.

We want to be "good Christians" - so we go along sometimes, with demands by those in positions of power. I recall one Sunday in particular, we attended that church, and I had this unsettled feeling within - and I looked around the church, and saw a sea of believers, but I felt something about the church was wrong. It was a process, I found, of leaving an abusive church.

I've since come to realize that people sometimes turn-off the "still small voice" because we doubt our own assessment of the situation, or erroneously buy into the abuser's demands to submit. This is a dark and ugly sin being perpetrated by those entrusted with positions of power. We didn't immediately leave that church, and I felt like I was somehow betraying my friend by going there. It was confusing. I am disappointed that I didn't realize what was going on sooner, but I'd never experienced spiritual abuse before. As time went on, I came to realize just what happened.

When I encountered spiritual abuse on a forum, I encountered the same demands to submit to their "authority." I requested that another believer with discernment be brought in, but the two staunchly refused, even preventing me from contacting the owner of the site. This type of abuse works in darkness - there is no desire by the perpetrators to be transparent, or open themselves up to the possibility of being proved wrong. It was upsetting, and I realized some of the depth of pain my friend must have felt, when that abuse was directed at her in a church.

The two on the forum proclaimed that "the Holy Spirit spoke to *them*." They attempted to control through the proclamation that they alone received instructions from the Holy Spirit. I was shocked at the open display of pride and refusal of self-examination. Another believer then told me several of the moderators are involved in deep sexual sin.

It concerns me that a number of believers may fall prey to this delusion perpetrated by misguided, sinful believers, who are deluded themselves, and it gives satan an opportunity. It is my belief that the pastors who hurt my friend didn't represent God, they did satan's work. Look at how their actions have affected another believer for all these years. What those pastors did was evil in my estimation.

I do think, as another poster pointed out, we need to look carefully within, to see if there is anything that needs correction.
 
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angeltrue

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I have also experienced this. in every church or forum I have been. also in non religious and other religions places and forums. that's just how people are in general...
jesus warned us in matthew 7:
“13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
and also:
"21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "

so we should not expect much from people in general. only from our self.
I think that's a good point - it's human nature, although Christians are called to a higher level. They're relevant scriptures. It does seem like the narrow gate is very very hard - to live true to what you know is truth, and not to veer off on a wrong direction some try to lead. I had read it was widespread, so I wondered how many experienced it, and how they deal with it when they encounter it.
 
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Paidiske

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My experience of spiritual abuse was in the home, so it was a little different.

I think, when it comes to church leadership and power, there's something of a distinction to be made. A church leader may have the authority to make practical decisions - for example, what hymns we will sing this week, or whether to rearrange the chairs in the sanctuary, or whatever - as given to them by their church. (Authority for church leaders is always given/delegated, never assumed).

But what we don't have is authority to tell people what to think, how to behave, how to live. We can offer advice and counsel, and we may, from time to time, have to lay down some boundaries (one real life example is that I've had to say to someone that while she is always welcome in church, she cannot come while she is drunk), but it is wrong to claim a God-given right to exercise control over others' decisions, or to threaten people with negative spiritual consequences (eg. going to hell) if they don't go along with our view of things. People need to live and worship in freedom, not out of a sense of obligation to their minister.
 
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angeltrue

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My experience of spiritual abuse was in the home, so it was a little different.

I think, when it comes to church leadership and power, there's something of a distinction to be made. A church leader may have the authority to make practical decisions - for example, what hymns we will sing this week, or whether to rearrange the chairs in the sanctuary, or whatever - as given to them by their church. (Authority for church leaders is always given/delegated, never assumed).

But what we don't have is authority to tell people what to think, how to behave, how to live. We can offer advice and counsel, and we may, from time to time, have to lay down some boundaries (one real life example is that I've had to say to someone that while she is always welcome in church, she cannot come while she is drunk), but it is wrong to claim a God-given right to exercise control over others' decisions, or to threaten people with negative spiritual consequences (eg. going to hell) if they don't go along with our view of things. People need to live and worship in freedom, not out of a sense of obligation to their minister.
I don't think spiritual abuse in the home is much different - it's still the same arbitrary "authoritarian don't-question-me" type of spirit at work. I think it's very easy to fall prey to it, and believers need to stay alert that they don't commit it, and they don't allow others to commit it.

Parents have authority over a child, but a child should be allowed to question and discuss their decisions, as long as it's reasonable. The verse came to mind from Timothy: Rightly handling the word of truth. I have experienced that those who commit spiritual abuse do not correctly handle the word of truth.

I think a word of warning is in order, as I have seen the damage this abuse of authority inflicts. Those new in the faith, or who haven't developed discernment can fall prey to believe the assertions made by these people, that "they" are "the one" who is "guided by the Holy Spirit" or "God put them in their position" - and they violate their own conscience because these people assert they speak for God. That's dangerous.

How many people went to that abusive church after my friend and us left, and were sucked into inflicting harm on someone, who now is disgusted with "Christians?" How many people are going onto that busy forum, not knowing the evil lurking there?
 
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