Spirits of the dead

[mindlight]

Today I met with a Liberian Christian pastor who was talking about his country and the tension between Christian and African Traditional Religions in his country. One big idea that a lot of African Christians have is that the spirits of those who die linger for a while after they die and can continue to influence, heal and act in their families and communities after death for good or ill.

My first reaction was that this was completely wrong but I have not properly thought through my reaction. I wanted to do this before I talked with this man again.

My questions are these:

1) What exactly happens when you die?
2) Do you believe that your spirit remains conscious in the time between your death and resurrection?
3) Do you believe that the spirits of those who die can continue to linger after death and influence those who are left? Or is there a deep gulf between those who live and those who have died?
4) Is communing with the dead always a sin or in some cases permissible?
5) Can normal Christians like for example my grandfather be assumed into heaven before the general resurrection and then make visits like Moses and Elijah did to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration

 

[Albion]

My questions are these:

1) What exactly happens when you die?
2) Do you believe that your spirit remains conscious in the time between your death and resurrection?

Yes.

3) Do you believe that the spirits of those who die can continue to linger after death and influence those who are left? Or is there a deep gulf between those who live and those who have died?

Deep gulf.

4) Is communing with the dead always a sin or in some cases permissible?

Not permissible (although "communing" might be understood in several different ways).

5) Can normal Christians like for example my grandfather be assumed into heaven before the general resurrection and then make visits like Moses and Elijah did to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration

No.

 

[Tull]

Ecclesiastes 9:6 answers these questions.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This one will open a can of worms.

I will attempt to give the perspective Christianity has historically taken, but I'm not interested in arguing. I will always answer questions as I am able, but I'm not looking to debate anyone into submission, nor are various individual interpretations of Scripture likely to change my mind, as I studied this out with much prayer to get where I am. So, this is just an offering, but not an invitation to argue.

Today I met with a Liberian Christian pastor who was talking about his country and the tension between Christian and African Traditional Religions in his country. One big idea that a lot of African Christians have is that the spirits of those who die linger for a while after they die and can continue to influence, heal and act in their families and communities after death for good or ill.

My first reaction was that this was completely wrong but I have not properly thought through my reaction. I wanted to do this before I talked with this man again.

My questions are these:

1) What exactly happens when you die?

The soul separates from the body. The body is generally placed in the ground and will generally decompose. The soul begins a process of an intermediate state, when it is separated from the body until the resurrection. The experiences during this time will be affected by the disposition the person has toward God, but the final judgement is not yet.

2) Do you believe that your spirit remains conscious in the time between your death and resurrection?

Yes.

3) Do you believe that the spirits of those who die can continue to linger after death and influence those who are left? Or is there a deep gulf between those who live and those who have died?

There may be a short period when the soul lingers, but it is a spirit. It cannot affect change in the world. It cannot interact with living persons unless God were to make it possible in that particular case, which He could do for the sake of one living, but I don't know of any instance where this has happened. It's not something that can just routinely happen by the nature of spirits themselves. And a newly departed spirit is likely to be - rather focused on its own very unique and previously unknown experience at that time.

4) Is communing with the dead always a sin or in some cases permissible?

It depends on what you mean by this. Any case of attempting to contact the dead, call them up, get information from them, talk directly with them - is forbidden as necromancy.

If God in His mercy and wisdom were to SEND someone, such as Moses and Elijah appeared at the Transfiguration, that is not sin. But anyone who thinks they see someone who has died, known to them or not, would be wiser to suspect a demonic trick than to simply accept it as a saintly visitation.

From the earliest times, there were requests made of those who have died to pray for us, because they are WITH God (when we have good reason to hope this). But they do not become omniscient. God can make them aware of our requests, because HE knows everything, and they might commune with Him. But it is not because they are lingering around and can know anything of us on their own.

5) Can normal Christians like for example my grandfather be assumed into heaven before the general resurrection and then make visits like Moses and Elijah did to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration

The spirits of Christians can be with God before the general resurrection - we have martyrs under the throne in Revelation as an example. But they cannot just decide to come visit. God could send them, if He decides to. But again, we should not see this as an expected thing.



Expecting to see and interact with the dead opens the door for easy acceptance, and puts people easily at the mercy of demons to deceive them. It is not a safe or healthy way to think.

 

[newlightseven]

Africans and the slaves and many of their descendants are the poor, persecuted, downtrodden, and robbed of the world. Jesus said to them belongs the kingdom of heaven. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them who have passed have been granted eternal life and function on some level on this earth.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Today I met with a Liberian Christian pastor who was talking about his country and the tension between Christian and African Traditional Religions in his country. One big idea that a lot of African Christians have is that the spirits of those who die linger for a while after they die and can continue to influence, heal and act in their families and communities after death for good or ill.

My first reaction was that this was completely wrong but I have not properly thought through my reaction. I wanted to do this before I talked with this man again.

My questions are these:

1) What exactly happens when you die?

Your soul separates from your body. How, I don't know, maybe quantum physics.

2) Do you believe that your spirit remains conscious in the time between your death and resurrection?

I would hope so, because given the text of many verses in the Bible that indicates the resurrection/Second Coming was supposed to happen in the days of the Apostles, I'm beginning to think it won't ever happen. I assume we just go to heaven when we die.

3) Do you believe that the spirits of those who die can continue to linger after death and influence those who are left? Or is there a deep gulf between those who live and those who have died?

I think the first is a possibility if the person didn't die peacefully, like soldiers in battle. Some may come to Earth to warn others in some form, but most don't.

4) Is communing with the dead always a sin or in some cases permissible?

Depends on intent. If you're doing it with bad intentions, then yes. If you have really good intentions and make sure to stay on guard, I think it's permissible in some cases if you're really really careful. Best to not most of the time though.

5) Can normal Christians like for example my grandfather be assumed into heaven before the general resurrection and then make visits like Moses and Elijah did to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration

See my answer for #2.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[mindlight]

Ecclesiastes 9:6 answers these questions.

<<<Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.>>>

So your answer is on the lines of the dead being completely separated from the living, with no influence on any human activity thereafter also.

 

[mindlight]

This one will open a can of worms.

I will attempt to give the perspective Christianity has historically taken, but I'm not interested in arguing. I will always answer questions as I am able, but I'm not looking to debate anyone into submission, nor are various individual interpretations of Scripture likely to change my mind, as I studied this out with much prayer to get where I am. So, this is just an offering, but not an invitation to argue.

Thanks for your reply

The soul separates from the body. The body is generally placed in the ground and will generally decompose. The soul begins a process of an intermediate state, when it is separated from the body until the resurrection. The experiences during this time will be affected by the disposition the person has toward God, but the final judgement is not yet

Yes.

There may be a short period when the soul lingers, but it is a spirit. It cannot affect change in the world. It cannot interact with living persons unless God were to make it possible in that particular case, which He could do for the sake of one living, but I don't know of any instance where this has happened. It's not something that can just routinely happen by the nature of spirits themselves. And a newly departed spirit is likely to be - rather focused on its own very unique and previously unknown experience at that time.

There are Africans who specialise in communing with these spirits of the dead and have special masks for this purpose. It sounds like you are saying that their efforts are largely in vain and that the spirits have no influence on the world of the living unless God gives them a special dispensation for that. But the initiative for such an event would rest with God and not these conjurors.

It depends on what you mean by this. Any case of attempting to contact the dead, call them up, get information from them, talk directly with them - is forbidden as necromancy.

Yes this is my view also. This was an offence punishable by death in the Jewish theocracy.

<<<<'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads. Lev 20:27>>>>>

Do eastern Orthodox Christians say prayers for the dead like Catholics believing that they may yet have an effect. Is there a purgatory in Eastern Orthodoxy?

If God in His mercy and wisdom were to SEND someone, such as Moses and Elijah appeared at the Transfiguration, that is not sin. But anyone who thinks they see someone who has died, known to them or not, would be wiser to suspect a demonic trick than to simply accept it as a saintly visitation.

God sends rather than we summon is a crucial difference. It seems to me that this desire to honour ones ancestors and to put them on a par with Moses or Elijah has no foundation in scripture. Angels are sent to minister to us but we have no examples of what this African Christian was talking about.

From the earliest times, there were requests made of those who have died to pray for us, because they are WITH God (when we have good reason to hope this). But they do not become omniscient. God can make them aware of our requests, because HE knows everything, and they might commune with Him. But it is not because they are lingering around and can know anything of us on their own.

Ah OK this might be a point of difference between us. That we can ask the saints to intervene on our behalf. But as you say in this case the crucial difference is that they are with God not hanging around the house they died in or their favourite rock or tree in the garden.

The spirits of Christians can be with God before the general resurrection - we have martyrs under the throne in Revelation as an example. But they cannot just decide to come visit. God could send them, if He decides to. But again, we should not see this as an expected thing.

Expecting to see and interact with the dead opens the door for easy acceptance, and puts people easily at the mercy of demons to deceive them. It is not a safe or healthy way to think.

I think demonic deception is a clear fruit of such communing. Africans love to talk and they love their connections with the community and with a wider family that includes dead relatives. But there are boundaries on what constitutes a possible community and what does not.

 

[1213]

...
4) Is communing with the dead always a sin or in some cases permissible?
...

I think Bible is against communing with dead, because:


'Don't turn to those who are mediums, nor to the wizards. Don't seek them out, to be defiled by them. I am Yahweh your God.
Lev. 19:31

 

[mindlight]

Yes.

Deep gulf.

Not permissible (although "communing" might be understood in several different ways).

No.

Think we are on the same page but I need to be able to argue this with this pastor also.

 

[mindlight]

Africans and the slaves and many of their descendants are the poor, persecuted, downtrodden, and robbed of the world. Jesus said to them belongs the kingdom of heaven. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them who have passed have been granted eternal life and function on some level on this earth.

I also believe I will meet a great many Africans in the afterlife. However suggesting a function on earth after they die needs some kind of biblical justification. Can you supply one?

 

[mindlight]

Started to realize that I had died, but was still wondering
about the kitchen light. Once in the tunnel I could no longer
view things on the earth. Josiah was told that he would be
gathered and not see the trouble that would come.
2 Kings 22:20
"Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers...and
thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon
this place..."
Anyway, it was not my time to die and went back out of the tunnel/ to my
apartment complex, and was slammed back into my body. The couch was now
felt as under me, and that light switch was up. The bulb burned out.

OK this sounds like an intensely existential experience which was itself all consuming. By that I mean you were not that interested in talking to people as you were dragged out of your body and towards the tunnel. The real action was what was happening to you. I do not know if you had shouted from above the palm trees if anyone would have heard you, or indeed if you had any control over the movement whatsoever. From your account I would suspect not and that fits conventional Christian interpretations of dying. That once dead we are separated from our bodies and taken somewhere else and communion with those who are left behind is neither a priority or possible.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Tull]

So your answer is on the lines of the dead being completely separated from the living, with no influence on any human activity thereafter also.

Yes

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The parable that Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus tells a lot about what happens to the dead in terms of the separation between the dead and the living. He says that there is a great gulf between them that cannot be traversed. Once a person dies they go into eternity and there is no way back. They cannot influence the living any longer. Demonic familiar spirits can disguise themselves as the spirits of the dead and cause people to believe that the spirits of loved ones are still around to have their influence. But the spirits of the dead are separated by a great gulf from the living and have no further role to play in the physical world.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for your reply

You are most welcome, and your reply was interesting.

There are Africans who specialise in communing with these spirits of the dead and have special masks for this purpose. It sounds like you are saying that their efforts are largely in vain and that the spirits have no influence on the world of the living unless God gives them a special dispensation for that. But the initiative for such an event would rest with God and not these conjurors.

Well, the problem is that spirits (generic) CAN have some influence. Demons and Holy Angels can. So their efforts might not be "in vain" meaning that nothing at all comes of them. But the problem I see with what you describe is what I mentioned before ... if people are believing, expecting spirits to do something, this is a perfect opportunity for demons to deceive them. So there might be effects, and they might well seem benign or convincing that they are the dead relatives, but ... I think it highly, highly, HIGHLY unlikely that it would ever have anything actually to do with those relatives. And if it ever did, it would be through God allowing it. And if they are not Christians, that is highly unlikely.

Yes this is my view also. This was an offence punishable by death in the Jewish theocracy.

<<<<'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads. Lev 20:27>>>>>

Do eastern Orthodox Christians say prayers for the dead like Catholics believing that they may yet have an effect. Is there a purgatory in Eastern Orthodoxy?

We do not believe in purgatory as defined by Catholics. Yes, we do say prayers for those who have died, because we love them and this is all we can do for them anymore. What God does with those prayers, we do not have any expectations for. We do NOT believe that our prayers can somehow "save" a person who lived and died opposed to God. It may be possible, remember the rich man in Jesus' story, who asked for a drop of water on his tongue for a moment of relief? If we pray for someone in torment, perhaps God will grant them a moment's respite or comfort. We don't know. Perhaps God will hear our prayers, knowing before the foundation of the world that we would pray them, and act in the person's life to draw them to Him. Or ... something else. We never have expectation, we just pray for them because we love them, and the rest is God's business.

God sends rather than we summon is a crucial difference. It seems to me that this desire to honour ones ancestors and to put them on a par with Moses or Elijah has no foundation in scripture. Angels are sent to minister to us but we have no examples of what this African Christian was talking about.

Yes, it is very unlikely that our beloved grandfather was on a par with Moses or Elijah. Or maybe he was ... sometimes the very simple and humble people are very close to God. But there is no reason to want to raise them up in importance. I guess I don't get that. But if we had someone close to us who was very close to God, we would know that. My great-grandmother was such a person. Still, I would not expect God to send her to visit me. I pray for her just as I pray for anyone else I love. We don't really know anyone's heart perfectly.

But you are right. The only way it would be legitimate is if God sends. And while I believe that is possible, it is VERY rare, imo. There are probably far, far more instances of people thinking it happening who are actually deceived.

Ah OK this might be a point of difference between us. That we can ask the saints to intervene on our behalf. But as you say in this case the crucial difference is that they are with God not hanging around the house they died in or their favourite rock or tree in the garden.

I know that most Protestants would not do this, because of what they have been taught. And that's fine too. We ALL have Christ to intercede for us. But I think it is important to realize that the only way they are conscious of what happens on earth would be if God lets them be aware. They are not floating around the corner of the room watching us. There is Scriptural foundation for the awareness of Saints on what happens on earth - the martyrs ask God about it in the book of Revelation. But they know because God allows them to.

I think demonic deception is a clear fruit of such communing. Africans love to talk and they love their connections with the community and with a wider family that includes dead relatives. But there are boundaries on what constitutes a possible community and what does not.

I agree that somehow communicating with the dead is clearly forbidden. And almost certainly what they are receiving are demonic spirits.

But we DO have a strong sense of community with the Christians who have gone before us. They are alive in Christ, and are as much a part of the Church as we are - much more so in fact. And they love us, and we love them. Because they love us, they would probably be praying for us anyway. If I go to Christ, and my family is still alive, I will certainly be praying to Him for their sake, whether they ask me to or not.

 

[Meowzltov]

1) What exactly happens when you die?
2) Do you believe that your spirit remains conscious in the time between your death and resurrection?
3) Do you believe that the spirits of those who die can continue to linger after death and influence those who are left? Or is there a deep gulf between those who live and those who have died?
4) Is communing with the dead always a sin or in some cases permissible?
5) Can normal Christians like for example my grandfather be assumed into heaven before the general resurrection and then make visits like Moses and Elijah did to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration

We don't know a lot scientifically, except what we can garnish from Near Death Experiences. Apparently spirits DO hang around for short periods of time before they move on. And they are conscious even after they move on. I don't know if they can influence the living. I'm open. I don't believe there is anything wrong with asking the dead to pray for you or blessing them--but listening for them to talk back or asking for esoteric knowledge is the sin of divination. We know that Moses, Enoch, and Mary were assumed. I'm open to the possibility that others might be assumed, but it looks like God reserves this for the most exceptional of all people: I can't think of anyone I'd add to the list.