Spider Web Construction

[Bob Crowley]

Even if we did show you this method of trial and error, whatever that means to you, would you even acknowledge it as evidence?

If you show me the specific method of how the spider created the fibre in it's silk producing organ or cell; after first constructing the organ or cells to do the job; complete with spirial structure; ability to spin three or more different types of silk for specific purposed; resulting in a tensile strength greater than any man made object; and at the same developed purpose designed cutting jaws tips of the legs which don't stick to the thread; the knowledge or instinct to find an anchor point; the need and incentive to develop silk fibre in the first place; the complex chemical structure of the thread itself; all done with no "intellectual" understanding of what it was aiming for or how to do it; then I'll believe that you've got something to show me.

But not till then.

The elaborate structure of spider silk: Structure and function of a natural high performance fiber - PMC

Biomaterials, having evolved over millions of years, often exceed man-made materials in their properties. Spider silk is one outstanding fibrous biomaterial which consists almost entirely of large proteins. Silk fibers have tensile strengths ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

On the business of "autocatalysis", it has not been shown to work in practice unless already advanced and "designed" molecules are present.

Ligating homochiral polypeptides

Ligating homochiral polypeptides cannot originate homochiral biomolecules naturalistically because the conditions this occurred in are unlikely to arise spontan

creation.com

The fascinating experiments were inspired by existing biological protein structures so cleverly designed that no one would have thought up the autocatalytic scheme without them. But ligation of E with N only occurs thanks to first converting to a highly reactive thiobenzyl ester, so the autocatalysis could not have arisen naturally. Templating merely accelerates the process by optimally moulding the reactants together. Essentially the authors demonstrated that if optically pure E and N were mixed with no contaminants present, properly activated in a laboratory, a chemical bond would form. Nothing resembling a solution to the origin of homochirality in a genetic system has been demonstrated.

The experimenters repeatedly used the word "Design" when describing their experiments.

In a key 1997 paper, Ghadiri and colleagues emphasized the word design multiple times when discussing these experiments and never referred to evolution. When alluding to the purpose and value of their research, they state correctly that applications in the future “would first require the ability to rationally design informational self-reproducing and self-replicating molecular systems.”

I'll believe it when I see it. In the meantime it exists in the realm of purposely designed information theory.

 

[Bob Crowley]

This thread happened because I noticed a large web spanning the space between the patio gutter and some shrubs and fence.

Today I happened to see the spider, and I was surprised to see how small it was. It was only about a centimetre across with legs in their usual semi folded position.

One of the anchoring threads had broken or become detached, so the lower half of the main "circular" web had collapsed. The top half was about 50cm across and about 20 cm deep as the bottom half had shrunk upwards due to the residual elasticity.

It was about 3.9 meters across at the widest point from the anchorage point on the patio gutter and the other end on a shrub.

This 1cm spider with a "brain" about the size of a pin head somehow "designed" this huge web compared to its own body size, knowing nothing intellectually about how to create silk and nothing about tensor analysis, and certainly nothing about Kevlar.

It did it by instinct. Which came first - the web or the instinct? The instinct obviously. Who gave it the instinct? And what biochemical reactions had to be incorporated into its microscopic "nervous system" for the instinct to work?

Where did that come from? The ubiquitous "trial and errror" of "Evolution" so beloved of the modern atheists, all hell bent on denying God?

Until the day they realise they made one almighty mistake, and that He was, is and will be there all along. If He paid that much attention to detail before He'd even created the universe from nothing, our thoughts, words, actions and inactions are going to be easily visible to Him.

"Not a sparrow falls without your Father's consent... You are worth more than many sparrows...:", "... the very hairs on your head are counted..." and "if He clothes one of these (the plans of the field) like this..." - We can either accept God as creator or we can deny Him.

We'll given an account either way. We didn't get here by evolutionary chance.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Correction - When I checked the web earlier in bright sunlight, the spider was quite small. But I just went outside now and there was a much larger spider on the web, busy rebuilding it and it had reanchored the central web back to the ground.

This one was about 2.5 cm long in body with legs a similar length, and maybe 1.5 cm across. Possibly the smaller one might have been an unfortunate male, as some female spiders of "many species" conclude their nuptials by eating their mate.

The claim was made earlier that the main part of the web is often about 20 times larger than the spider itself and that's probably about right in this case. Both the smaller and larger spider were quite agile in navigating the web.

These Spiders Spring Off Their Mates to Avoid Sexual Cannibalism

Energy stored in the front legs of gangly orb-weaving spiders helps them live to mate another day

www.scientificamerican.com

For some male spiders, love is all-consuming. In a grisly practice known as sexual cannibalism, females of many spider species devour their mates after procreation, either for sustenance or to keep their reproductive options open.

Female spiders are usually much larger than their male counterparts and thus have a strong physical advantage.

If this was the female, it was much larger than the spider I observed earlier.

Still a matter of instinct though, including eating its mate. One of those peculiar oddities of a world designed by a "loving" God.

If a Good God can come up with a scheme like that, what's Hell like?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Bob, nothing you are saying remotely gives the impression that you want to talk about science or want to learn. You might be linking to scientific sites and pages, but in the end, all you are saying is "I don't care for the science. God did it. That's it."

That smacks of disingenuousness and arrogance. If you don't want to talk about evolution, why are you posting in the sciences subforum?

 

[Bob Crowley]

I can make the rejoinder that I don't think Evolution did it. I think I've given a few hints as to why I might think that way.

We'll have to disagree. No way do I think a bunch of unguided chemicals got together over a long period of time and created life.

For a start there wouldn't even be a motive.

Since this planet is replete with life then Whoever made it had life in mind.

I'll stick with God, whom science points to.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I can make the rejoinder that I don't think Evolution did it. I think I've given a few hints as to why I might think that way.

We'll have to disagree. No way do I think a bunch of unguided chemicals got together over a long period of time and created life.

For a start there wouldn't even be a motive.

Since this planet is replete with life then Whoever made it had life in mind.

I'll stick with God, whom science points to.

Again, please use the reply button. It makes things so much easier for everyone and it's just common decency.

But you're not even engaging with anything scientific. Just saying "I don't accept anything scientific" is not disagreeing. It's just you flat out refusing to engage in an genuine conversation, let alone your asinine demand of what is essentially time travel to see the step by step process of evolution happening to get you to even accept it possibly factual.

You come across as nothing but arrogant here, Bobby.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Again, please use the reply button. It makes things so much easier for everyone and it's just common decency.

But you're not even engaging with anything scientific. Just saying "I don't accept anything scientific" is not disagreeing. It's just you flat out refusing to engage in an genuine conversation, let alone your asinine demand of what is essentially time travel to see the step by step process of evolution happening to get you to even accept it possibly factual.

You come across as nothing but arrogant here, Bobby.

Used the reply button just to keep you happy. See you.

 

[Larniavc]

Not only that but their jaws are designed to make it easy to cut silk strands when they need to -

Spiders don’t have jaws.

 

[Larniavc]

And why would senseless chemicals even begin to form life without a motive?

I don’t understand something. Therefore God.

 

[Larniavc]

It also appears spiders have special coating on the tips of their legs so they don't stick to their own webs.

Only some of them. There are 52,000 species of spiders. Not all are orb web builders.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Spiders don’t have jaws.

My error - I should have said "Fangs".

 

[Larniavc]

the designer theorem.

It’s not a theorem; it’s a hope.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Only some of them. There are 52,000 species of spiders. Not all are orb web builders.

Even if they aren't orb weavers, they have methods to avoid getting trapped, including a non-stick coating of branching hairs and an anti-adhesion chemical, which must have been developed concurrently with their silk glands, hunting instincts, vibrational tuning, cutting jaws, spiral cables within the threads, engineering ability, and the strongest elastic substance known to man.

How Come Spiders Don’t Get Tangled In Their Own Webs?

The crafty little arachnids have evolved some fancy footwork.

www.iflscience.com

Here it seems like the spider would be at risk of getting caught in their own web, but not all of the silk will be sticky. Furthermore, specialized claws on the spider’s feet combined, with choice placement, help to keep them clear of the sticky parts. Spiders’ legs are also coated in a non-stick combo of branching hairs and an anti-adhesion chemical coating, explained Smithsonian Insider, which combined with their “fancy footwork” keeps them out of trouble.

 

[Bob Crowley]

It’s not a theorem; it’s a hope.

It's a reality.

 

[Larniavc]

If you show me the specific method of how the spider created the fibre in it's silk producing organ or cell;

This is directly observed in every spiderling that grows from it’s egg.

You need to show that this needs God to happened. What you currently have is nothing more than hope.

 

[Larniavc]

which must have been developed concurrently with their silk glands, hunting instincts, vibrational tuning, cutting jaws, spiral cables within the threads, engineering ability, and the strongest elastic substance known to man.

Not are all. Tarantula need no ‘engineering’ ability.

 

[River Jordan]

More trial and error I suppose - layers of nanofibres parallel to the axis, other nanofibrils coiling like a spiral staircase... containing nanoncyrstals .. which contain electrical charges to stop the chains from slipping.

Gods webspinners give chemists free lessons-Creation Magazine (spider silk)

Spiderwebs stronger than Kevlar.

creation.com

Apparently the spider's biology figured this out by trial and error, resulting in a complex fibre that has more strength than Kevlar, using commonly available biological agents to make it, like beatutiful roses from the glory of mud, unlike Kevlar which uses very toxic processes to form.

When you can even begin to show me the method of trial and error the spider used to develop this fibrous materials then I'll think the amorophous catch cry of "Evolution" is the answer to all the complexity of biological life.

Plus the fact nearly every biological reaction requires an enzyme, which are biological catacylsts. No enzymes - no biological reactions.

How did they develop without biological reactions to develop them?

You seem to persist in this notion that the evolution of silk making and web construction went from an organism with no ability to do either, to an organism with all the abilities we see in spiders today,

I have a feeling you're not aware that there are thousands of different types of spider silk and that spiders use silk in lots of different ways (not just for webs). So if you really are interested in this subject, you should take the time to read up on spider biology and at least learn the basics.

 

[River Jordan]

If you show me the specific method of how the spider created the fibre in it's silk producing organ or cell

Let's say no one here at Christian Forums can do that. Given how it's extremely unlikely anyone here is a spider biologist specializing in the evolutionary history of silk production and web building, that wouldn't surprise you would it?

If you really want to get more info on this subject, why are you posing your questions in a Christian Forum? If no one here can answer your question, what exactly do you take from that?

Where did that come from? The ubiquitous "trial and errror" of "Evolution" so beloved of the modern atheists, all hell bent on denying God?

The majority of people in the developed world who are just fine with evolution are theists, not atheists. The largest Christian denominations have no problem with evolution.

So there's no need to connect evolution with atheism.

 

[Ophiolite]

Convenient outcome for blind unguided chance isn't it?

Not so convenient for flies!

And why would senseless chemicals even begin to form life without a motive?

And why would individual snow crystals act in concert to form an avalanche without a motive?

 

[Bob Crowley]

Neither of these comments have anything to do with the argument. Spiders are also at risk of being eaten by lizards and birds, and other creatures for all I know. The large spider I saw came out at night when it was far less visible.

An avalanche is caused by ordinary natural physical, non-biological causes, all of which are underpinned by just four fundamental forces - gravity, electromagnetic, strong and weak nuclear.

And I believe God designed and made them.