Speaking of Eschatological Stuff...

iitb · Jan 12, 2005

Okay, this theory may have tons of holes in it, and I may be the only person here willing to give it any sort of consideration, but it intrigues me.

Revelation 14:9-13:

9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

Well, I'm sure you noticed that the locations of the marks, hand and forehead, resemble something from Torah:
Exodus 13: 7-16

7. Unleavened cakes shall be eaten during the seven days, and no leaven shall be seen of yours [in your possession], and no leavening shall be seen of yours throughout all of your borders.
8. And you shall tell your son on that day, saying, "Because of this, the Lord did [this] for me when I went out of Egypt."

9. And it shall be to you as a sign upon your hand and as a remembrance between your eyes, in order that the law of the Lord shall be in your mouth, for with a mighty hand the Lord took you out of Egypt.

10. And you shall keep this statute at its appointed time, from year to year.

11. And it will come to pass when the Lord will bring you into the land of the Canaanites, as He swore to you and to your forefathers, and He has given it to you,

12. That you shall give over to the Lord whatever opens the womb, and every miscarriage that opens the womb of an animal which will be yours, the males belong to the Lord.

13. And every firstborn donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, and if you do not redeem [it], you shall decapitate it, and every firstborn of man among your sons, you shall redeem.

14. And it will come to pass if your son asks you in the future, saying, "What is this?" you shall say to him, "With a mighty hand did the Lord take us out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

15. And it came to pass when Pharaoh was too stubborn to let us out, the Lord slew every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of beast. Therefore, I slaughter [for a sacrifice] all males that open the womb, and every firstborn of my sons I will redeem.

16. And it shall be for a sign upon your hand and for ornaments between your eyes, for with a mighty hand did the Lord take us out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9

4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.

6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.

7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.

8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.

9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Deuteronomy 11:16-21

16. Beware, lest your heart be misled, and you turn away and worship strange gods and prostrate yourselves before them.

17. And the wrath of the Lord will be kindled against you, and He will close off the heavens, and there will be no rain, and the ground will not give its produce, and you will perish quickly from upon the good land that the Lord gives you.

18. And you shall set these words of Mine upon your heart and upon your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.

19. And you shall teach them to your sons to speak with them, when you sit in your house and when you walk on the way and when you lie down and when you rise.

20. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates,

21. in order that your days may increase and the days of your children, on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to give them, as the days of heaven above the earth.

Now, I'd rather not start an argument as to whether Tefillin are a literal binding of verses, as Orthodox Judaism teaches, or a symbolic one, a stance most often associated with the Karaites. I will, however, provide the following from Rabbi Samuel Ben Mier(Rashbam), grandson of Rashi:

"'For a sign upon your hand' According to its plain meaning (Omek Peshuto), 'It shall be remembered always AS IF it had been written upon your hand' SIMILAR TO 'he put me as a seal upon your heart' (Cant 8,6). 'Between your eyes', LIKE a piece of jewelry or gold chain which people put on the forehead for decoration" (Rashbam on Ex 13,9)

(note: I grabbed this quote from karaite-korner.org simply for ease of copying and pasting, but I have Rashbam's Exodus commentary, and it says pretty much the same thing)
Now, hypothetically, if these verses from Torah mean we are to have the Word of HaShem in our thoughts and actions always, isn't it possible that the "mark of the beast" isn't a physical mark, but disobedience?

ShirChadash · Jan 12, 2005

iitb said:
Okay, this theory may have tons of holes in it, and I may be the only person here willing to give it any sort of consideration, but it intrigues me.

Revelation 14:9-13:

Well, I'm sure you noticed that the locations of the marks, hand and forehead, resemble something from Torah:
Exodus 13: 7-16

Deuteronomy 6:4-9

Deuteronomy 11:16-21

Now, I'd rather not start an argument as to whether Tefillin are a literal binding of verses, as Orthodox Judaism teaches, or a symbolic one, a stance most often associated with the Karaites. I will, however, provide the following from Rabbi Samuel Ben Mier(Rashbam), grandson of Rashi:

(note: I grabbed this quote from karaite-korner.org simply for ease of copying and pasting, but I have Rashbam's Exodus commentary, and it says pretty much the same thing)
Now, hypothetically, if these verses from Torah mean we are to have the Word of HaShem in our thoughts and actions always, isn't it possible that the "mark of the beast" isn't a physical mark, but disobedience?

I have had the same thoughts, and am quite certain this is at least a possibility. (Hope I am allowed to say that.) I think it is best to let Scripture interpret itself wherever possible.

Dr. Shon · Jan 12, 2005

iitb, I guess it's possible, but I think it will be an actual mark. Personally, I think it will be something like the verichip thing that is being used already in some places. Something that quickly identifies a person as to who they are and what they are, or aren't, allowed to do or have. Just my 2 cents worth.

visionary · Jan 12, 2005

Dr. Shon said:
iitb, I guess it's possible, but I think it will be an actual mark. Personally, I think it will be something like the verichip thing that is being used already in some places. Something that quickly identifies a person as to who they are and what they are, or aren't, allowed to do or have. Just my 2 cents worth.

While I agree that the mark of the Lord is found in our thoughts and deeds, man's mark of who we worship will take on some outward sign that they can determine whether they need to killl us or not, whether they can buy from us or sell to us. Because of these man made requirements I would have to agree that the verichip maybe the man made method used to identify those that do and those that don't. I can see it being the replacement for your passport, your health card, your driver's license, and your credit card all rolled up in one inbedded chip...praised for it's advantages.

Yahudim · Jan 12, 2005

Shalom all,

Just a thought and a question. I can see where the verichip or other similar outward mark may seem the correct interpretation, but I am reminded of the Master's comments about Ceasar and Paul's instruction in Roman's 13. If the verichip becomes the law of the land, then what? Are we not supposed to submit to the higher authority in the manner prescribed by said authority?

visionary · Jan 12, 2005

Render onto Ceasar's what is due Ceasar...render unto God what is His...Worship is the Lord's

debi b · Jan 12, 2005

iitb said:
Now, hypothetically, if these verses from Torah mean we are to have the Word of HaShem in our thoughts and actions always, isn't it possible that the "mark of the beast" isn't a physical mark, but disobedience?

Well said

Regardless of whether or not it becomes a physical mark - the point you make about disobedience can not be ignored. We should be sober indeed - in deed

iitb · Jan 12, 2005

Well, something else to keep in mind about "outward marks" is that the Torah is full of 'em. Shabbat observance, kosher diet, and tzitzit just to name a few. Could it not bee seen as an outward mark to openly reject all of that?

debi b · Jan 12, 2005

That is very worthy of consideration

visionary · Jan 12, 2005

In word and in deed....that which follows the world, and those that follow the Lord are different in their thoughts and persuits....as in the way they approach life and living.

MyZz · Jan 12, 2005

I have often wondered along similiar lines visionary,great thread but must get some sleep LOL

Speaking of Eschatological Stuff...

iitb

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ShirChadash

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Dr. Shon

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visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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Yahudim

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visionary

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debi b

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iitb

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debi b

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visionary

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MyZz

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a.k.a. insaneinthebrain

A Jew, by the grace and love of God. Come home!

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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