Speaking in tongues

Anto9us · Apr 16, 2019

Phillip had four virgin daughters who prophesied. Why would women have the "higher" gift of prophesying, yet be excluded from Tongues, a lesser gift?

I have seen in this thread this misogynistic cessationism, and earlier a "full preterist cessationism" claiming that Tongues ceased in 70 AD.

The CEASERS are punting the Perfect back earlier and earlier.

topher694 · Apr 16, 2019

Anto9us said:
Phillip had four virgin daughters who prophesied. Why would women have the "higher" gift of prophesying, yet be excluded from Tongues, a lesser gift?

I have seen in this thread this misogynistic cessationism, and earlier a "full preterist cessationism" claiming that Tongues ceased in 70 AD.

The CEASERS are punting the Perfect back earlier and earlier.

Wanna hear something funny?

If Corinthians is a letter of correction and therefore not doctrine, that means 1 Cor 13 is not doctrine. What was in 1 Cor 13 again? Oh yeah, that Tongues will cease. Uh, oh!

Anto9us · Apr 16, 2019

I have always heard that there were more than two "letters to the Corinthians" - a 'harsh letter' we do not have, and so forth...

NOT DOCTRINE that tongues will cease - that IS funny!

But we know that a teleios will come; it's just not here yet.

The CEASERS seem to have added the offices of Prophet and Apostle to the things that have passed away or are never comin' -- no end to the claims that things have ended.

GodLovesCats · Apr 16, 2019

topher694 said:
Wow, is that guy seriously still trying to engage with me? (I can see the post numbers have gone up and no one else has commented except Jonathan). I suppose it is more demands for answers, insults and proclamations of victory because I refuse to engage... how very, very sad.

I see his username changed color. It must be a result of his behavior in this thread. The fact that his post number has gone up means nothing to me - only the content does.

The part about women not being allowed to speak in church is a totally different topic that should be in its own thread becaue it has nothing to dof with speaking in tongues.

topher694 · Apr 16, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
I see his username changed color. It must be a result of his behavior in this thread. The fact that his post number has gone up means nothing to me - only the content does.

The part about women not being allowed to speak in church is a totally different topic that should be in its own thread becaue it has nothing to dof with speaking in tongues.

Do you know what the different username colors mean? I've noticed it, but have no idea.

GodLovesCats · Apr 16, 2019

topher694 said:
Do you know what the different username colors mean? I've noticed it, but have no idea.

A Supporter said in an off-topic section the color Major1 is now means the user is temporarily banned.

GodLovesCats · Apr 16, 2019

topher694 said:
That's why I tried to avoid the debate before it started, but then I ended up letting myself get dragged into the nonsense anyway. I Should have stuck with my instincts. Oh well.

I know what you mean. Satan is a very good tempter and as sinners we all fall into the cracks.

Good thing I could avoid the temptation by posting on other forum sections for a while.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 26, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
I believe it is a very rare gift. It is used to converse with a non believer who does not speak the language of the believer yet God would like to convey His message to the unsaved person in order to save that person.It is a sign and a message.
Now that being said, there is another form of "tongues" that only God and the speaker share in its understanding. The only problem is neither God nor the speaker understands. This is why Paul stresses for understanding.

So Paul is mistaken or lying when he said that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God because no one understands him, because he speaks mysteries in the Spirit? Where does it say that God doesn't understand him?

Most people I know who pray in tongues know that when they pray, God hears and understands every word they are saying, because they believe that Paul is speaking the truth and that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is as much inspired Scripture as the rest of the New Testament.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 26, 2019

HTacianas said:
I don't care if someone speaks in tongues or pretends to speak in tongues or whatever. According to the bible, speaking in tongues is the least of the gifts and should be avoided. It has occurred here and there throughout the history of the Church but is rare.

The problem I have is when people claim that speaking in tongues is a requirement to determine if a baptism is valid, an idea I know to be false. Any person making that claim places themselves in the position of judge over the validity of every baptism in history.

Where is the actual Bible quote that tongues is the actual least of the gifts?

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 26, 2019

GingerBeer said:
I think that talking gibberish and pretending that God made you do it and that it is some kind of special prayer language or some kind of angelic language is just silly. Oh and I think that's what "speaking in tongues" means to most, but not all, evangelicals.

So you don't believe that what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 is inspired Scripture?

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 26, 2019

Anto9us said:
I have never seen a person change positions on Cessationism/Continuationism because of a thread on a message board; and I have seen a LOT of such threads.

There is a greater chance of me going to the United Pentecostal church 100 feet from my apartment and convincing those Oneness Pentecostals to accept the doctrine of the Trinity than there is of anyone changing their minds about Tongues because of a thread.

I went to a couple of services there til I read through a book their pastor gave me and choked on the non-Trinitarianism. I liked everything about 'em except the denial of Trinity

If you look at the label on a packet of rat poison you will see that 99.995% of it is good food for rats. That's why rats enjoy eating it. But the .005% of the poison is enough to kill them stone dead!

A church group might have 99.995% good teaching, and just .005% of poisonous doctrine. So imbibing the good stuff laced with the poison will kill you as stone dead spiritually as if you were involved in the satanic rituals of the Masonic Lodge!

Anto9us · Apr 26, 2019

1Co 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

It seems that prophesying is put above Tongues, unless Interpretation is given; but, no, Oscarr, I don't think there is chapter and verse that actually says Tongues is "least of the gifts" - even though it may be so.

Anto9us · Apr 26, 2019

Oscarr said:
.005% of poisonous doctrine.

the lack of the Trinity to me was that .005%, and yet I do not want to avoid those Oneness Pentecostals; they meet at a time well after my Methodist services and they have "other good rat food"

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 26, 2019

HTacianas said:
This is not a point I'm arguing with you, but:

1Co 14:23 - Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

And then, prophesy is to be coveted:

1Co 14:1 - Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Why don't those who claim the gift of tongues not prophesy? Or heal? Why is it that the most easily faked gift the one that counts?

I had cancer last year that required life changing surgery to cure and then required the same invasive procedure all over again to correct a complication from the first surgery.

I could really have used someone with the gift of healing rather than the gift of incoherent babbling. And I certainly have no use for some charlatan claiming it's a requirement for salvation.

The gift of tongues is included in the list of the Spiritual gifts. So if you believe that the gift of tongues is false incoherent babbling, then you would have to believe that the gifts of healing as listed in 1 Corinthians 12 is false as well. So even if a person with a gift of healing ministered to you, you would have remained sick because you would have believed his gift to be false. Either the whole list of the Spiritual gifts is absolutely genuine or totally false. You can't pick and choose which ones are true or not.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 26, 2019

Anto9us said:
I never hear from any charismatic that tongues was a requirement for salvation.

Nor have I, and I have either been a member of a Charismatic church or associated with Charismatics over the last 52 years! Must have been one of those way out lunatic fringe groups that taught that.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 26, 2019

Oscarr said:
So Paul is mistaken or lying when he said that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God because no one understands him, because he speaks mysteries in the Spirit? Where does it say that God doesn't understand him?

Most people I know who pray in tongues know that when they pray, God hears and understands every word they are saying, because they believe that Paul is speaking the truth and that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is as much inspired Scripture as the rest of the New Testament.

God hears but it does not say He understands. It is between God and the individual who speaks without their understanding to discern if He understands them. I suspect this is why Paul said to pray with your understanding because it is fruitful.
Blessings

Anto9us · Apr 26, 2019

1Co 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

See, even in a period when even Cessationists agree that Tongues occurred, Paul's rhetorical questions indicate NOT EVERYBODY spoke in Tongues and NOT EVERYBODY interpreted! Even back before what the Cessationists call the PERFECT -- every single Christian did not speak in tongues, interpret, or heal.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 26, 2019

Anto9us said:
1Co 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

It seems that prophesying is put above Tongues, unless Interpretation is given; but, no, Oscarr, I don't think there is chapter and verse that actually says Tongues is "least of the gifts" - even though it may be so.

Thanks for that. I'm actually not trying to be contentious about it, but intending to stick with what the Scripture actually says, not what we might think it says.

I believe that each Spiritual gift listed in 1 Corinthians 12 is equal to each other, but one gift is better than another for the role and context it should be used. The gifts of healing are the best gifts in the context of evangelism, because, as we see in the gospels and acts, miraculous healing caused many to turn to Christ. But that gift may not be the best during a Sunday morning worship service where Prophecy would be the better gift.

But prophecy may not be the best gift for personal counselling, but the gift of the Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom would be the better ones. Discernment of spirits could be a good gift for dealing with spiritual warfare and deliverance occasions, where the gifts of prophecy and healing may not be as suitable.

While the gift of tongues without interpretation would be useless in a public meeting, it may be very powerful in private intercession when there is an intercessory burden and the person may not be able to put words to what is happening in his spirit for the person or situation he is praying for. This is where the Spirit makes intercession through him with tongues or groanings that cannot be uttered (this is called travail in prayer).

What I am actually saying here is that the Holy Spirit has provided the most suitable gift to be used in any particular situation, and when believers are being led of the Spirit in ministry, the most suitable gift is manifested to have the best effect.

I think that some generalise about the gift of tongues being the least gift because they don't understand it, and use that generalisation as an excuse to avoid the possibility of actually entering into it.

Anto9us · Apr 26, 2019

Also, I never saw a verse that said "apostles" and "prophets" as offices would 'cease'.

imo, only 3 gifts are subject to a future cessation -- tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 26, 2019

Anto9us said:
the lack of the Trinity to me was that .005%, and yet I do not want to avoid those Oneness Pentecostals; they meet at a time well after my Methodist services and they have "other good rat food"

Just make sure you "eat" the bits without the poison!

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