Speaking in tongues

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God hears but it does not say He understands. It is between God and the individual who speaks without their understanding to discern if He understands them. I suspect this is why Paul said to pray with your understanding because it is fruitful.
Blessings

Let's look at the actual literal verse:
"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful" (1 Corinthians 14:14).

You are saying that tongues are unfruitful. Not what Paul says. He says that when he prays in tongues, his understanding is unfruitful, which means that he doesn't understand what he is praying when he is praying in tongues.

It is important to see what Paul is actually and literally saying, not what we might think he is saying.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Also, I never saw a verse that said "apostles" and "prophets" as offices would 'cease'.

imo, only 3 gifts are subject to a future cessation -- tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge.

Correct. All these things will cease at the end of this church age, because apostles, prophets, tongues, prophecy, words of knowledge, healing, and all the other gifts are just for this church age and will be history once this church age ends with the Rapture.

 

[GingerBeer]

So you don't believe that what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 is inspired Scripture?

Was Paul writing about talking gibberish? I do not think he was. He wanted the Christians in Corinth to have an interpreter present so he expected messages in tongues to be messages in languages that could be interpreted like Vladimir Putin's interpreter translates what he says into English so that Donald Trump can understand it. So what I am wondering is why you thought that what I wrote was implying that what Paul wrote in 1Corinthians 14 is not inspired? Remembering that I wrote:

I think that talking gibberish and pretending that God made you do it and that it is some kind of special prayer language or some kind of angelic language is just silly. Oh and I think that's what "speaking in tongues" means to most, but not all, evangelicals.​

PS: Are you trying to revive this thread? Before you started posting today the last post was from 17th April-2019. Surely tongues has had enough threads in CF in the past to cover virtually every possible point of view.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Let's look at the actual literal verse:
"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful" (1 Corinthians 14:14).

You are saying that tongues are unfruitful. Not what Paul says. He says that when he prays in tongues, his understanding is unfruitful, which means that he doesn't understand what he is praying when he is praying in tongues.

It is important to see what Paul is actually and literally saying, not what we might think he is saying.

Just be aware Jesus warned some who do supernatural works in His name proclaiming "I never knew you". If you do not understand what you are saying and Paul says it is unfruitful then it is in error. Tongues are a sign for unbelievers, a tool to spread the Gospel. If one needs to be edified through tongues , let it be with their understanding.
But lets not get in a tongues debate, it is a serious waste of precious time.
Blessings

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Was Paul writing about talking gibberish? I do not think he was. He wanted the Christians in Corinth to have an interpreter present so he expected messages in tongues to be messages in languages that could be interpreted like Vladimir Putin's interpreter translates what he says into English so that Donald Trump can understand it. So what I am wondering is why you thought that what I wrote was implying that what Paul wrote in 1Corinthians 14 is not inspired? Remembering that I wrote:

I think that talking gibberish and pretending that God made you do it and that it is some kind of special prayer language or some kind of angelic language is just silly. Oh and I think that's what "speaking in tongues" means to most, but not all, evangelicals.​

PS: Are you trying to revive this thread? Before you started posting today the last post was from 17th April-2019. Surely tongues has had enough threads in CF in the past to cover virtually every possible point of view.

I just rediscovered this thread and got "re-inspired".

Actually all I am wanting to do is to direct people to what Paul is actually saying in 1 Corinthians 14, and that every verse in the chapter needs to be taken into account.

If a group of believers, read 1 Corinthians 14, take it literally, believe that praying in tongues is God's will for them, then they ask for the gift, and after receiving it, and believe they have the gift, and then start using their faith to speak a language they have never learned, and words start flowing out of them which they did not consciously make up, then on what basis does anyone judge that they are speaking "gibberish" instead of manifesting the true gift of tongues?

What about the girl I once took through those same steps of faith, and as soon as she said to the Lord, "I now receive the gift of tongues", she immediately started speaking in a beautiful, fluent language without me coaching her at all?

Also, what about the time I was quietly praying in tongues to support people being ministered to at the altar call of my church, and a New Zealand Maori lady sitting beside me told me that I was speaking encouragement from the Lord to her in the Maori language without a trace of accent? Her name was Mrs Samuels, and she was a very quiet sensible person not given to excesses.

Also, what about my friend who was in a prayer meeting, praying in tongues, and an African guest from Ghana, stopped the prayer meeting and told my friend what he was saying in his own village dialect, something that my friend could never have known?

Also, my mentor in the faith when I was young once lived in Kenya with his parents, and they were members of an African Pentecostal church, and Africans came in from isolated areas where they had never seen a European, got baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in clear Oxford English without the trace of an African accent? He was there, understood what these Africans were praying, and heard them praising God and speaking of the great things of God in perfect English, and these Africans were speaking in tongues! My mentor was a strict Scottish Calvinist, had no time for NZ or American Pentecostalism, and was never known to lie or exaggerate anything.

So, are going going to accuse me, my friend, and my mentor's description of tongues-speaking Africans of speaking gibberish?

 

[GingerBeer]

I just rediscovered this thread and got "re-inspired".

Actually all I am wanting to do is to direct people to what Paul is actually saying in 1 Corinthians 14, and that every verse in the chapter needs to be taken into account.

If a group of believers, read 1 Corinthians 14, take it literally, believe that praying in tongues is God's will for them, then they ask for the gift, and after receiving it, and believe they have the gift, and then start using their faith to speak a language they have never learned, and words start flowing out of them which they did not consciously make up, then on what basis does anyone judge that they are speaking "gibberish" instead of manifesting the true gift of tongues?

Reject it on the basis that what they say is gibberish. It is objectively discernible that it is gibberish. If they talk gibberish it is not a language of any kind and gibberish cannot be translated because it has no content to translate, no words, no sentences, and no significant thoughts to express.

If however they started to speak in Italian, Greek, Mandarin, or Japanese then people would take note and they would very likely receive a lot of attention because they had received a genuine gift of tongues instead of the run of the mill gibberish that people pretend is a private prayer language or an angelic language both of which happen to be exactly the same as gibberish.

I could type some gibberish here and say it is tongues. If I took the attitude that you appear to be advocating then you'd have no basis and no right to contradict me. I could further claim that the gibberish can be interpreted by a supernatural gift of interpretation which need not have anything whatever to do with translating one language to another. And then I could say that the interpretation I had received is something like this:

The Lord went into a small town in the border region of Galilee and proceeded to speak saying:

Let every infant and every young child be brought to me that they may receive the gift of baptism at the hand of my disciples.​

And the people brought their children, infant and young from newborns to those about five years old and they were baptised and received the Lord's blessing as he laid his hands on them and they and their parents went away blessed and praised God for his glorious grace. And the name of that place was Sarepta and it is south of Sidon in the land of Phonecia near to the region of Galilee. ​

If there are any typos or spelling errors in my transcription of the message then they are to be accounted as scribal errors and not taken as harming the veracity of my claims about the revelation.

Of course I do not make the claim above seriously, it is just an illustration of where your view can take people. If you received my revelation then infant baptism would be proven and all the endless arguments about baptism in CF would be silenced for you and anyone else who accepted the revelation.

What about the girl I once took through those same steps of faith, and as soon as she said to the Lord, "I now receive the gift of tongues", she immediately started speaking in a beautiful, fluent language without me coaching her at all?

Also, what about the time I was quietly praying in tongues to support people being ministered to at the altar call of my church, and a New Zealand Maori lady sitting beside me told me that I was speaking encouragement from the Lord to her in the Maori language without a trace of accent? Her name was Mrs Samuels, and she was a very quiet sensible person not given to excesses.

Also, what about my friend who was in a prayer meeting, praying in tongues, and an African guest from Ghana, stopped the prayer meeting and told my friend what he was saying in his own village dialect, something that my friend could never have known?

Also, my mentor in the faith when I was young once lived in Kenya with his parents, and they were members of an African Pentecostal church, and Africans came in from isolated areas where they had never seen a European, got baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in clear Oxford English without the trace of an African accent? He was there, understood what these Africans were praying, and heard them praising God and speaking of the great things of God in perfect English, and these Africans were speaking in tongues! My mentor was a strict Scottish Calvinist, had no time for NZ or American Pentecostalism, and was never known to lie or exaggerate anything.

So, are going going to accuse me, my friend, and my mentor's description of tongues-speaking Africans of speaking gibberish?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Reject it on the basis that what they say is gibberish. It is objectively discernible that it is gibberish. If they talk gibberish it is not a language of any kind and gibberish cannot be translated because it has no content to translate, no words, no sentences, and no significant thoughts to express.

If however they started to speak in Italian, Greek, Mandarin, or Japanese then people would take note and they would very likely receive a lot of attention because they had received a genuine gift of tongues instead of the run of the mill gibberish that people pretend is a private prayer language or an angelic language both of which happen to be exactly the same as gibberish.

I could type some gibberish here and say it is tongues. If I took the attitude that you appear to be advocating then you'd have no basis and no right to contradict me. I could further claim that the gibberish can be interpreted by a supernatural gift of interpretation which need not have anything whatever to do with translating one language to another. And then I could say that the interpretation I had received is something like this:

The Lord went into a small town in the border region of Galilee and proceeded to speak saying:

Let every infant and every young child be brought to me that they may receive the gift of baptism at the hand of my disciples.​

And the people brought their children, infant and young from newborns to those about five years old and they were baptised and received the Lord's blessing as he laid his hands on them and they and their parents went away blessed and praised God for his glorious grace. And the name of that place was Sarepta and it is south of Sidon in the land of Phonecia near to the region of Galilee. ​

If there are any typos or spelling errors in my transcription of the message then they are to be accounted as scribal errors and not taken as harming the veracity of my claims about the revelation.

Of course I do not make the claim above seriously, it is just an illustration of where your view can take people. If you received my revelation then infant baptism would be proven and all the endless arguments about baptism in CF would be silenced for you and anyone else who accepted the revelation.

You can type what you believe is gibberish, and it will be just that. But if a person is praying to God in his private prayer room and he is speaking a fluent language that is flowing out of him without any consciousness of making the language up, and he is believing that what he is speaking is a language that God understands and appreciates, then he is well out of range of any person who can accuse him of speaking "gibberish".

It seems that you haven't attempted to address the actual experiences that I and my friends have had involving tongues, because maybe you have no real answer, other than to accuse my friends and me of lying.

 

[GingerBeer]

You can type what you believe is gibberish, and it will be just that. But if a person is praying to God in his private prayer room and he is speaking a fluent language that is flowing out of him without any consciousness of making the language up, and he is believing that what he is speaking is a language that God understands and appreciates, then he is well out of range of any person who can accuse him of speaking "gibberish".

There are numerous video recording and audio recording of people speaking in tongues and every one that I've heard and seen shows that it is gibberish that is talked.

It seems that you haven't attempted to address the actual experiences that I and my friends have had involving tongues, because maybe you have no real answer, other than to accuse my friends and me of lying.

If you and your friends think that you're speaking fluent languages then record your meetings and send them to a linguist to be analysed. Most universities have linguists available and will likely cooperate if you ask politely. Test the spirits to see if they are from God. That's a maxim to live by.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are numerous video recording and audio recording of people speaking in tongues and every one that I've heard and seen shows that it is gibberish that is talked.



If you and your friends think that you're speaking fluent languages then record your meetings and send them to a linguist to be analysed. Most universities have linguists available and will likely cooperate if you ask politely. Test the spirits to see if they are from God. That's a maxim to live by.

Why should I and my friends do that? Who are they, and what position to they have to make any sort of judgment about what happens before God in my private prayer room? NO!!!! I will not!

I pray in tongues according to God's Word in 1 Corinthians 14, and God understands and He responds to me. He directly confirmed to me that the gift of tongues is real, He fully approves of it, and has been responding to me through it for the last 53 years!

Here endeth the discussion from me.

 

[GingerBeer]

Why should I and my friends do that? Who are they, and what position to they have to make any sort of judgment about what happens before God in my private prayer room? NO!!!! I will not!

I pray in tongues according to God's Word in 1 Corinthians 14, and God understands and He responds to me. He directly confirmed to me that the gift of tongues is real, He fully approves of it, and has been responding to me through it for the last 53 years!

You say that you will not submit a recording to allow your claim that the tongues spoken are fluent languages because you want it to be treated as prayers in private. If that is so then why are you exposing this allegedly private prayer to public examination in Christian Forums. If it is too precious and too holy to be recorded and examined so that it can be tested to see if it really is fluent languages that are spoken then it ought to also be too precious and too holy to post in CF as "evidence" in a common discussion forum discussion.

So, you may feel that you have spoken in fluent languages for the last 53 years and you may feel convinced that it is all exactly as you claim it to be but that means nothing to anyone else who has not heard it, tested it, and come to accept the claims as true because they are true. You've just made claims and then refused to let them be examined and tested. That is the sure pathway to error and part of the road way into high control cult religion. I will not be following you down that path just because you say it is all true and good. It needs to be open, available for testing, and tested before it can be offered as evidence to prove some doctrine of faith that you hold and want others to hold too.

Here endeth the discussion from me.

Most beloved, do not be willing to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You say that you will not submit a recording to allow your claim that the tongues spoken are fluent languages because you want it to be treated as prayers in private. If that is so then why are you exposing this allegedly private prayer to public examination in Christian Forums. If it is too precious and too holy to be recorded and examined so that it can be tested to see if it really is fluent languages that are spoken then it ought to also be too precious and too holy to post in CF as "evidence" in a common discussion forum discussion.

So, you may feel that you have spoken in fluent languages for the last 53 years and you may feel convinced that it is all exactly as you claim it to be but that means nothing to anyone else who has not heard it, tested it, and come to accept the claims as true because they are true. You've just made claims and then refused to let them be examined and tested. That is the sure pathway to error and part of the road way into high control cult religion. I will not be following you down that path just because you say it is all true and good. It needs to be open, available for testing, and tested before it can be offered as evidence to prove some doctrine of faith that you hold and want others to hold too.

I am responding again because when I read your post, the Holy Spirit said to me, "You don't have to prove anything just to please men. Trust the written Word and don't be a man-pleaser. You don't have to prove Me or my gifts to any other living soul."

 

[GingerBeer]

I am responding again because when I read your post, the Holy Spirit said to me, "You don't have to prove anything just to please men. Trust the written Word and don't be a man-pleaser. You don't have to prove Me or my gifts to any other living soul."

God says to me do not be willing to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world and he said it in the scriptures.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God says to me do not be willing to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world and he said it in the scriptures.

Good! Keep believing that!

 

[GingerBeer]

Good! Keep believing that!

I do believe it. It is what God said in the scriptures. So I will, by God's grace, obey his warning to me to not be willing to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. It is the only wise course open to a Christian when confronted by persons claiming to have messages from spirits even if they say the spirit is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Anto9us]

"Gibberish" seems to be the favorite word of Cessationists. Below it is used four times in one small paragraph.

Reject it on the basis that what they say is gibberish. It is objectively discernible that it is gibberish. If they talk gibberish it is not a language of any kind and gibberish cannot be translated because it has no content to translate, no words, no sentences, and no significant thoughts to express.

 

[topher694]

"Gibberish" seems to be the favorite word of Cessationists. Below it is used four times in one small paragraph.

I've heard more gibberish in Cessationists twisting of scripture, justifications, and rudeness than I have ever heard from tongues.

 

[GingerBeer]

"Gibberish" seems to be the favorite word of Cessationists. Below it is used four times in one small paragraph.

That is interesting but I am not a cesssationist.

 

[Anto9us]

"Gibberoidal Cessationism" can be added as a type of Cessationism illustrated in this thread -- alongside Misogynistic Cessationism and Full Preterist Cessationism that said the gift ended in 70 AD.

These types of Cessationists could be termed "Gibberoids".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Gibberoidal Cessationism" can be added as a type of Cessationism illustrated in this thread -- alongside Misogynistic Cessationism and Full Preterist Cessationism that said the gift ended in 70 AD.

These types of Cessationists could be termed "Gibberoids".

That rhymes with Hemorrhoids, and we all know where you find them!!

 

[GodLovesCats]

The lack of the Trinity to me was that .005%, and yet I do not want to avoid those Oneness Pentecostals; they meet at a time well after my Methodist services and they have "other good rat food"

Pentecostals are Christians just like Methodists. Where would you get the idea they lack the Trinity?