Speaking in tongues

[Major1]

Yeah, good point. I have probably prayed with over 100 people to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I always make it clear that their salvation is not dependent upon it. Some receive it quickly and easily, others not so much (there are a variety of reasons for this). There are even some cases where I'm pretty certain they received the baptism, but they still struggle to pray in tongues (usually because they over-think it... like I once did). If someone were to fall into the latter category of struggling with it at first (which is common) AND you attached the pressure of salvation to that struggle. I can see how people could very easily become disheartened and want nothing further to do with it and even become aggressive towards those who do.

Do you know of a Scripture which says that a born again believer will speak in an unknown tongue when they are saved.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I would say that when anyone moves away from Hebrews 1:1-2...……......
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe",

and begins to look for the revelation of God in other ways, he opens the door for error and false teaching based in the opinion of men instead of God's Word.

John !;1..........
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus Christ is the word and you cannot separate the Lord Jesus from His word and Hebrews 1:1 is telling us that today God is speaking through the Bible, which is His word.

I think the problem may be a focus on a word of God the carnal mind can read, instead of experiencing the world becoming flesh in us. Maturity is the way to unity, the bible is there, people read it, and divide over personal interpretations.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I think the problem may be a focus on a word of God the carnal mind can read, instead of experiencing the world becoming flesh in us. Maturity is the way to unity, the bible is there, people read it, and divide over personal interpretations.

Obviously. We cannot understand the meanings of God's Word in every chapter because of our limitations as mere humans. So it is just human nature to make gueses which are often not accurate.

 

[Major1]

I think the problem may be a focus on a word of God the carnal mind can read, instead of experiencing the world becoming flesh in us. Maturity is the way to unity, the bible is there, people read it, and divide over personal interpretations.

I have no problem with that thought.

It also maybe that some people like the idea of speaking in tongues because they believe it allows them to be closer to God. Unfortunately the act is one of "Emotionalism" instead of Bible doctrine.

Please do not misunderstand me...….I do not care if anyone speaks in tongues. I am not condemning them in anyway.

All I am saying is that the action does not make one more of a Christian than those who do not do it.
Let us move past our prior beliefs and transgressions and embrace the biblical definition of the miracle of tongues The fact is, not just tongues, but all supernatural miracles have ceased when the Bible was completed. These signs were tokens, and as such have passed away with the realization of what they foreshadowed. As Biblical Christians, we are deeply concerned that the practice of speaking in tongues be biblically interpreted and governed by the scriptures. The Word of God is our authority. Thus we cannot be led by the nose by testimonies of man's experiences, anyone's feelings or human reasoning. And the Bible in no way supports today's Speaking in tongues phenomenon.

An excellent site for learning on tongues is found at ………….
http://mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/is_speaking_in_tongues_biblical.shtml

 

[topher694]

The fact is, not just tongues, but all supernatural miracles have ceased when the Bible was completed. These signs were tokens, and as such have passed away with the realization of what they foreshadowed. As Biblical Christians, we are deeply concerned that the practice of speaking in tongues be biblically interpreted and governed by the scriptures. The Word of God is our authority. Thus we cannot be led by the nose by testimonies of man's experiences, anyone's feelings or human reasoning. And the Bible in no way supports today's Speaking in tongues phenomenon.

That is absolutely NOT a fact, that is a belief and an interpretation that people are welcome to. A fact would be that tongues IS mentioned in the Bible many times and thus IS biblical doctrine. And you have zero bases to generalize everyone who does pray in tongues as being driven by "Emotionalism" when you do not believe in it and have not experienced it yourself (and it is soooo not true, usually it is the opposite). ---SE---

 

[SinoBen]

So basically it is impossible to understand Holy Spirit gifts such as speaking in tongues, so we make up at least two different possible explanations.

You might be interested to watch this debate video. If you take notes, then take notes of the scripture passages being discussed and you check it out yourself.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I have no problem with that thought.

It also maybe that some people like the idea of speaking in tongues because they believe it allows them to be closer to God. Unfortunately the act is one of "Emotionalism" instead of Bible doctrine.

Please do not misunderstand me...….I do not care if anyone speaks in tongues. I am not condemning them in anyway.

All I am saying is that the action does not make one more of a Christian than those who do not do it.
Let us move past our prior beliefs and transgressions and embrace the biblical definition of the miracle of tongues The fact is, not just tongues, but all supernatural miracles have ceased when the Bible was completed. These signs were tokens, and as such have passed away with the realization of what they foreshadowed. As Biblical Christians, we are deeply concerned that the practice of speaking in tongues be biblically interpreted and governed by the scriptures. The Word of God is our authority. Thus we cannot be led by the nose by testimonies of man's experiences, anyone's feelings or human reasoning. And the Bible in no way supports today's Speaking in tongues phenomenon.

An excellent site for learning on tongues is found at ………….
http://mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/is_speaking_in_tongues_biblical.shtml

The above post pretends to agree with me then disagrees with me.

I continue to disagree with opinions expressed in the above post.

 

[Major1]

The above post pretends to agree with me then disagrees with me.

I continue to disagree with opinions expressed in the above post.

That is actually very incorrect. Anyone reading the post can see that it was a personal opinion and anyone and everyone is free to reject it.

Personally, and I can not stress this enough...…...I do not care if anyone speaks in a strange unintelligible utterance. If you want to do it...…...then DO IT!

All I am saying is that no one can do it and claim that it is Bible Doctrine when it is not.

It is however a Denomination teaching and is not a Bible doctrine.

 

[topher694]

btw, for others following this:

The fact is, I make NO CLAIMS.

This statement is a claim.

 

[Major1]

btw, for others following this:



This statement is a claim.

And that is your opinion!

I can not help but notice that you have not responded to the Scriptures posted for you.

It would seem to me that with all of your experience and writing ability you would have no problem with them.

I verified for you that when the Bible uses the term "tongue," it is not describing a strange, non-human utterance. On the contrary, the term tongue in the Bible simply means normal, spoken human language.

Because of your extensive writing and teaching ability on this subject I am positive that you are aware that not all Christians are given the same spiritual gift nor can we acquire spiritual gifts for ourselves merely because we desire them.

1Cor. 12:28 - 30............
"And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

God alone assigns spiritual gifts by the Spirit. I am sure that you will agree that simply put, not every Christian has the same gift, and, therefore, it is impossible for every Christian to possess the gift of tongues as seen in 1Cor 12:30.

Therefore, Biblically speaking then wouldn't you agree that it is wrong for a church or person to teach believers they can and must acquire the gift of tongues, for this is impossible according to Scripture.

Would you care to enlighten us on this????

 

[topher694]

 

[Major1]

I LOVE THAT!!!!

He looks like ME and his expression is exactly what I was thinking about this subject!!!!

However, I am still wondering why you have not taken the opportunity to respond to the Scriptures posted for you.

 

[topher694]

I LOVE THAT!!!!

He looks like ME and his expression is exactly what I was thinking about this subject!!!!

However, I am still wondering why you have not taken the opportunity to respond to the Scriptures posted for you.

Reading helps:

I could answer (and have in classes) every single "claim" you make about tongues. I could probably articulate your stance better than you can because I've studied that extensively as well. But, why? You have made it clear you have no interest in learning anything from me, only proving yourself right.

 

[Major1]

Reading helps:

OK.

I think we all can now see what is going on.

I have extended to you 3 times Bible Scriptures that a person with your stated intelligence and teaching ability should be able to expand upon and you have refused the chance to teach us all what you know about tongues.

I wonder what the word is for that action or rather lack of action.

However I am pleased to help you out with more Scriptures.

1Cor. 14:20 -22..............
"Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, “BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME,” says the Lord. So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe."

When anyone reads those Scriptures is is abundantly clear that Paul chastises the church for being spiritually immature in their thinking. Their inappropriate desire for the gift of speaking in tongues was evidence of their spiritual immaturity.

In fact, Paul goes further and says that if they must be ignorant of something (the example is---if they must be "infants"), then be ignorant of evil rather than being ignorant of the proper place for speaking in tongues, which was their situation.

Now I am not saying that of YOU or anyone else. I am referring strictly to what Paul said to the people in the Corinthian church.

The Corinthian church was ignorant because they were not observing what had been written in the Torah concerning the purpose of speaking in tongues.

Paul reminds them that in Deut 28:49 (later repeated in Isaiah 28:11-12) God foretold how one day the Jewish nation would witness a "strange people" ( the Gentiles) speaking to God in unfamiliar languages. This event would be a sign to the Jewish people that their Messiah has come, yet God says the Jewish nation wouldn't heed this sign and the Jewish people would not receive their Messiah.

Have you studied that part of the Scriptures my brother? Maybe you wrote about that in your extensive work on this subject????

This is the 4th opportunity afforded to you so that you can correct my ignorance on this subject.

Actually your exact words were...…………..
"I could answer (and have in classes) every single "claim" you make about tongues. I could probably articulate your stance better than you can because I've studied that extensively as well."

 

[topher694]

OK.

I think we all can now see what is going on.

I have extended to you 3 times Bible Scriptures that a person with your stated intelligence and teaching ability should be able to expand upon and you have refused the chance to teach us all what you know about tongues.

I wonder what the word is for that action or rather lack of action.

Who are you to demand I teach you anything when you have done nothing but insult me and those who believe as I do?

How rude!

You have shown no desire to learn, only to argue. (which you said you had no desire to do... another contradiction)

 

[Major1]

You just keep contradicting yourself... you tell me that perhaps I should study further, I tell you that I HAVE studied extensively and then you say that doesn't matter??? So, what it really means is I need to study what you think and come to your conclusions in order for it to be valid. You say you make no claims then claim that your stance is fact and doctrine and anything that disagrees with that claim is not. You claim to not care if people do it, but then call it gibberish. That is speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

As far as rudeness, I see nothing in my words, but what I do see is you dismissing a large group of people as operating in "emotionalism" or talking "gibberish", that, is name calling and rudeness.

I could answer (and have in classes) every single "claim" you make about tongues. I could probably articulate your stance better than you can because I've studied that extensively as well. But, why? You have made it clear you have no interest in learning anything from me, only proving yourself right.

You said and I quote...……….
"I could answer (and have in classes) every single "claim" you make about tongues."

May I ask you where in the Bible does it say that speaking in tongues should be TAUGHT IN A CLASSROOM??????

1 Corth 12:28...…….
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongue.".

I was always told that a GIFT was something given. You are saying however that YOU TEACH THE GIFT OF TONGUES.

How does one teach a Gift given by God?????

 

[Major1]

Who are you to demand I teach you anything when you have done nothing but insult me and those who believe as I do?

How rude!

You have shown no desire to learn, only to argue. (which you said you had no desire to do... another contradiction)

Who am I???/ Nobody. Just an old fashioned country boy who does not necessarily believe what you believe and is giving you the opportunity to teach me.

Rude?????? In what way and how have I insulted you????
Demand???? What have I demanded???

We must be reading different postes.

I am not demanding anything from you my brother. If fact I have not argued with you at all.

I have posted Scriptures which confirm what I have said and asked you to comment on them and as of this moment you have refused to do so.

I am asking you to enlighten all of us especially ME.

Why are you avoiding a discussion of the Scriptures?????

It seems to me that since you are proficient in this subject you would jump at the opportunity to share your gift of knowledge with all of us.

Am I missing something here????

 

[topher694]

You said and I quote...……….
"I could answer (and have in classes) every single "claim" you make about tongues."

May I ask you where in the Bible does it say that speaking in tongues should be TAUGHT IN A CLASSROOM??????

1 Corth 12:28...…….
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongue.".

I was always told that a GIFT was something given. You are saying however that YOU TEACH THE GIFT OF TONGUES.

How does one teach a Gift given by God?????

Are you serious right now???? Really???? Where in the Bible does it say that tongues should be challenged on an internet forum????

I'm seriously wondering if I haven't just completely been bamboozled by a masterful troll.

 

[topher694]

It seems to me that since you are proficient in this subject you would jump at the opportunity to share your gift of knowledge with all of us.

Am I missing something here????

Yes, you are missing the difference between teaching and arguing, and in spite of my best efforts and better judgement I have been sucked right into it anyway.

I have had people message me privately and sincerely ask for a copy of my manual so they could learn. And I did jump at that chance and share it, because the request was sincere.

As long as I'm sucked in anyway I will provide some answers, but I can't share 12 weeks of teaching in 1 post and given how these things go, I am reasonably certain my response will not be good enough and more "evidence" will be demanded and more needling will happen if I don't provide it. But here goes anyway...



Let's address the 1 Corinthians 14 scripture since you started with that and have used it several times. This will be a look at the chapter in it's entirety, as such I will not post the entire scripture reference, I will proceed straight to breaking it down. Folks can look it up for themselves if they like.

If we are going to point to 1 Corinthians 14 and tongues then we need to look at the whole thing, not just one little piece of it AND we need to realize the context that the Corinthian church was MESSED UP and in need of some serious correction at this time, so....

In 1 Cor 14, Paul states the following about tongues in a corporate “church” setting:

• That we should desire it
  
  
• That it edifies the one using it - The closest analogy we have to edifies today would be to “charge up” like a battery. The question is charge up for what?
  
  
• He wishes we all would speak in tongues... not that we would all stop
  
  
• That it can be interpreted.. Which is another gift (1 Cor 12)
  
  
• He does not say it should NOT be done in church, he says he would RATHER the focus on things that bring revelation to the entire congregation
  
  
• He goes on to describe (via sounds & instruments) the ineffectiveness of playing those instruments without ORDER and PURPOSE
  
  • Picture everyone bringing their own instrument to church and playing their own song with it… it would not sound good… that doesn’t mean the instrument is bad or shouldn’t be used, it should be used with ORDER and PURPOSE
    
    
  • Same with tongues, it is never stated it shouldn’t be used, or even that it shouldn’t be used in church, he states he WANTS the church doing it. But the focus during service should be teaching and understanding… in other words don’t interrupt your pastor by praying in tongues, it doesn’t help anyone but you.
    
    
  • Because of the nature of Paul’s writing here and previously it is pretty clear that there has been a lot of disorder and chaos going on in the Corinthian services and Paul is trying to put and end to that without discouraging the use of the gifts.

• Paul himself apparently does it... a lot!

• Next he says, tongues are a SIGN for unbelievers, the key here is SIGN
  
  • Sign = a) that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others b) an unusual occurrence transcending the common course of nature

• Next he establishes ORDER for THAT CHURCH including that if there are tongues they should be limited in number and interpreted (note it is being done around other believers)
  
  
• Closes out by saying “do not forbid to speak in tongues” but “let all things be done decently and in order”

If we put this all together we see: tongues happening in the church, but not in a way that hinders the ability of others to learn. That it has a positive effect (edification) on the individual using it. But it is NOT something that distinguishes you from other believers but it distinguishes you from unbelievers. Or, more bluntly, “Hey Corinthians! Tongues are good, but they don’t make you more special than your neighbor, so knock it off! Sit down! Listen to your pastor! And don't say anything unless it is beneficial to everyone” (Heck, I've said similar things to my kids)

 

[Major1]

Are you serious right now???? Really???? Where in the Bible does it say that tongues should be challenged on an internet forum????

I'm seriously wondering if I haven't just completely been bamboozled by a masterful troll.

Where in the Bible does it say that Tongues should NOTBE challenged on an internet forum?????

NOPE. I am not a troll (Whatever that is). Just what I told you, an old country boy who does not believe what you believe.

And you still have not addressed the Scriptures posted for you.