Speaking in tongues

[PollyJetix]

So you believe that the disciples on the Day of Pentecost were speaking the languages of the devout Jews from different provinces and they understood those languages naturally? Impossible. That completely contradicts 1 Cor. 14:2 which must be taken into consideration if the Day of Pentecost is to be discerned correctly, rightly dividing the Word of God. So then remembering that no man understands tongues, those Jews couldn't have understood them. I'm not going to give you the answer just yet, I want you to think what was actually happening if 1 Corinthian 14:2 can be believed. It would help you if you studied verses 22 and 23 together to figure out what TYPE of sign tongues was to the unbeliever. One clue - there were two types of people on the day of Pentecost who heard the tongues - devout Jews and the mockers. Which are considered "unbelievers."

It is impossible to understand 1 Cor 14 as an exclusive definition of how the genuine gift of tongues works.
What Paul was talking about was bringing the genuine gift of tongues, which the Corinthians were using wrongly, into line with the fruit of the Spirit.
Paul talks about personal prayer tongues in verse 2. But from about verse 5 and onward, he is talking about the operation of tongues in God-speaking-to-the-church. Which, if interpreted, is the same value as prophecy... which, when compared to Acts 2, showed me something else:

Did they prophesy on the Day of Pentecost? No. They spoke in tongues.
But those tongues were understandable by the audience. Which is the same function as interpretation... which is why Peter said "This is that spoken by Joel... your sons and daughters shall PROPHESY!" Those tongues were the same thing as prophesy, because those standing by, were able to understand.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is impossible to understand 1 Cor 14 as an exclusive definition of how the genuine gift of tongues works.
What Paul was talking about was bringing the genuine gift of tongues, which the Corinthians were using wrongly, into line with the fruit of the Spirit.
Paul talks about personal prayer tongues in verse 2. But from about verse 5 and onward, he is talking about the operation of tongues in God-speaking-to-the-church. Which, if interpreted, is the same value as prophecy... which, when compared to Acts 2, showed me something else:

Did they prophesy on the Day of Pentecost? No. They spoke in tongues.
But those tongues were understandable by the audience. Which is the same function as interpretation... which is why Peter said "This is that spoken by Joel... your sons and daughters shall PROPHESY!" Those tongues were the same thing as prophesy, because those standing by, were able to understand.

Exactly. Read my last post to Oscar. The interpretation of tongues is prophecy, also teaching, knowledge and revelation as in verse 6 of 1 Cor. 14.

You are right on the mark and rightly dividing the word of God. Yes, verses 2 and 22 are talking about our private prayer language which Mark 16 calls a sign. Also, there is a comparison of the words TO God and words FROM God when he says I pray with the Spirit and I will pray with the understanding also (interpretation). That is praying in our prayer language without interpretation, and with the interpretation in church.

Mark 16 - signs - TO God.
1 Cor. 12 - gifts - FROM God.

Therefore chapter 14 is not a comparison of tongues and prophecy, but tongues for the edification of self, and tongues with interpretation for the edification of the church.

Our prayer language (the sign of tongues) does not have to be interpreted, like the gift of tongues, but God can allow the gift of interpretation of tongues interpret our prayer and praise language like on the Day of Pentecost. It wasn't prophecy, but knowledge of what was being said. There is also regular prophecy, words of wisdom and words of knowledge. So these with interpretation of tongues are all the "hearing" gifts from God. One thing interpretation of tongues is NOT is interpretation of natural languages. Tongues and interpretation are both supernatural gifts used together.

Yes, the Corinthians had the real gift of tongues, but were arrogantly using them to boast they had gifts. "Look at me!" I've even heard some pastors say the Corinthians had tongues of the devil! How Pharisaical! In chapter one Paul praises them for having all the gifts of the Spirit. No where does he mention the devil, only their incorrect use. So I agree with you again. You are refreshing and the first person I didn't have to first teach all this to! Praise God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are correct in that the devout Jews HEARD their own languages. You are also correct that the preceding verse 21 speaks of judgment of the Jews not accepting Christ. But as far as this being a "one-off" I don't agree. I doubt very much that God would go against His own Word. So when he says no man understands, then no man understands. If you believe God lies, or Paul did, I just don't agree and I'll tell you what I have discovered which also explains your experience.

First off, on the Day of Pentecost each heard them speak in his own language. In other words it was not a cacophony of 120 different languages. No, each one heard all of them speaking their own language. How? They same way you did. The supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues. In Arizona I went to a church where this happened. A group of high school kids brought an unsaved female friend to church and at the end they and one of the leaders prayed for her. Part of the prayer was in tongues. At that point she started to cry. Everyone heard the tongues except her. She HEARD English.

I agree. The miracle was that the people who were meant to hear the praises heard it in their own language. Some reckon that the tongues were understandable languages and so there was no miracle. I disagree with that, because the crowd of pilgrims were amazed at what was going on. If the languages were natural languages, there would not have been that level of amazement. No. I think that the disciples were speaking languages they had never learned and did not understand what they were saying. The miracle was that the hearers heard their own dialects and this is what amazed them.

As for tongues being a sign to the unbeliever...and when they hear it they will think you are crazy, was a judgment, confirming the unbeliever or uninformed in their lack of acceptance and knowledge. It is the same type of sign as Jesus. Read Luke 2:34. Jesus is a sign which will be spoken AGAINST. Thus He was a negative sign to the unbeliever such as the Pharisees. Today those religious mockers are cessationists. What confirmed the correlation for me is the comparison of Luke 2:35 and 1 Corinthians 14:25. Both say, "the secrets of the heart are revealed."

Paul quoted Isaiah in relation to the "sign to the unbeliever". I believe that he was explaining the sign in terms of what Isaiah said. The Jewish believers at Corinth would have understood that right away. I think that the uninitiated ones thinking that the people were loopy when they heard the tongues being spoken out loud without interpretation is quite a different thing and not connected with the sign. Your explanation sounds pretty feasible and is an interesting one, but I don't think it is directly related to what Paul actually said in the context. I venture to respectfully suggest that saying that the outsiders considered the tongues speakers in the Corinthian church mad as a sign to them is a bit of a stretch.

God demands obedience. That is why tongues is the most peculiar of all the gifts. But read what Isaiah said about Jesus in 53. " He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

I can go along with that. Our attitude to Jesus has to take priority over the importance of tongues.

I'm sure you've heard tell of someone coming into a church to check out tongues only to say that the interpretation from the pastor or whomever that had the gift of interpretation was wrong because they understood the language and it was blasphemy. They swore they understood naturally, however Satan can counterfeit any bona fide gift of God. Just like he counterfeits tongues among his own such as in Voo Doo, so he can manipulate the understanding to be blasphemy.

The ones who told those stories were unable to back them up with proof. I think that it is in the region of "false news", made up stories to try and discredit tongues. In all my years connected with Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, I have never heard anything of the sort.

I did hear a story of someone setting out to discredit tongues went into a Pentecostal serve and spoke out in classical Latin to fool the congregation into thinking he was giving a tongues message. Someone, in good faith, gave an interpretation, not knowing that what was spoken was Latin. Then the deceiver went around trumpeting that these Pentecostals were stupid and false. My view is that the deceiver was an evil liar and he will suffer the consequences for his actions. This convinces me that Cessationism comes from a lying spirit because of waste of space people like that.

Praise God you and your friend experienced God's supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues. I asked my pastor what he experiences as I've never had that gift of interpretation. He said, it starts out in tongues, and then immediately all he hears is English. That is the same as the girl in Arizona, you and your friend, and the devout Jews on the Day of Pentecost. Remember the mockers did not receive the gift because of their hearts and only heard gibberish.

An interesting take on it, and as good as any other. The account in Acts does not say that the mockers heard only gibberish, but it is reasonable to assume that because of their response to what was going on.

After seven years of questions on tongues, God taught me all I know. I would go to be with these same beliefs as you and asking how can 1 Cor. 14:2 be right in light of what happened on the Day of Pentecost. The next morning just as I was waking, before my eyes were open, God whispered the answer - gift of interpretation of tongues. Every question I had was answered in this way. So I wrote a book on it that is on Amazon called "The Hidden Mystery Behind Tongues." I'm in the middle of two more called "The Hidden Mystery Behind Grace" and "The Hidden Mystery Behind Faith." I'll tell you what those hidden mysteries are seeing as I respect you. Grace is God's power, and faith comes by rhemas. They are based on the Hebrew style of writing and the meaning behind Greek words.

I must go on Amazon and have a look at your book. I think I will find it interesting.

Addition: I bought your book and I will read it with pleasure.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I agree. The miracle was that the people who were meant to hear the praises heard it in their own language. Some reckon that the tongues were understandable languages and so there was no miracle. I disagree with that, because the crowd of pilgrims were amazed at what was going on. If the languages were natural languages, there would not have been that level of amazement. No. I think that the disciples were speaking languages they had never learned and did not understand what they were saying. The miracle was that the hearers heard their own dialects and this is what amazed them.



Paul quoted Isaiah in relation to the "sign to the unbeliever". I believe that he was explaining the sign in terms of what Isaiah said. The Jewish believers at Corinth would have understood that right away. I think that the uninitiated ones thinking that the people were loopy when they heard the tongues being spoken out loud without interpretation is quite a different thing and not connected with the sign. Your explanation sounds pretty feasible and is an interesting one, but I don't think it is directly related to what Paul actually said in the context. I venture to respectfully suggest that saying that the outsiders considered the tongues speakers in the Corinthian church mad as a sign to them is a bit of a stretch.



I can go along with that. Our attitude to Jesus has to take priority over the importance of tongues.



The ones who told those stories were unable to back them up with proof. I think that it is in the region of "false news", made up stories to try and discredit tongues. In all my years connected with Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, I have never heard anything of the sort.

I did hear a story of someone setting out to discredit tongues went into a Pentecostal serve and spoke out in classical Latin to fool the congregation into thinking he was giving a tongues message. Someone, in good faith, gave an interpretation, not knowing that what was spoken was Latin. Then the deceiver went around trumpeting that these Pentecostals were stupid and false. My view is that the deceiver was an evil liar and he will suffer the consequences for his actions. This convinces me that Cessationism comes from a lying spirit because of waste of space people like that.



An interesting take on it, and as good as any other. The account in Acts does not say that the mockers heard only gibberish, but it is reasonable to assume that because of their response to what was going on.



I must go on Amazon and have a look at your book. I think I will find it interesting.

Addition: I bought your book and I will read it with pleasure.

Thanks. I want to reply to this quote of yours :
"I venture to respectfully suggest that saying that the outsiders considered the tongues speakers in the Corinthian church mad as a sign to them is a bit of a stretch."

I am merely quoting scripture. "23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"

 

[PollyJetix]

But... the word says the miracle was in the speaking.
The manifestation of the Holy Ghost falling was two-fold: cloven tongues of fire on each head, and each began to SPEAK in other tongues.

This is what the miracle-gift was.

The Word does not say there was a miraculous gift given to unbelievers, enabling them to hear things that were not even spoken!

After all, who is it that God gives the gifts to? Believers? or unbelievers?

 

[1stcenturylady]

But... the word says the miracle was in the speaking.
The manifestation of the Holy Ghost falling was two-fold: cloven tongues of fire on each head, and each began to SPEAK in other tongues.

This is what the miracle-gift was.

The Word does not say there was a miraculous gift given to unbelievers, enabling them to hear things that were not even spoken!

After all, who is it that God gives the gifts to? Believers? or unbelievers?

The miracle was two-fold. Both the speaking in tongues, and the interpretation of tongues. Remember the word says these were devout Jews who believed in God, not as Pharisees, but as true believers. No man comes to the Father unless the Spirit draw him. God is the one who gives gifts to man - why not to His own. As soon as Peter explained, they believed in Jesus. The secrets of their hearts were to be right with God. They were seekers. The word says, seek and ye shall find. Of course, there were others there whose hearts were not right, and they just mocked them, saying they were drunk. Why? The 120 sounded to them like unintelligible drunks.

As for the word not saying it, I disagree. It does talk about the hearing them all speak in their own language. 1 Cor. was written 20 years before Acts, and the first readers of Acts would have already known what gift enabled tongues to be interpreted because the gift of interpretation is a hearing gift.

Remember too, those who first read the book of Acts already practiced the gifts of the Spirit regularly. They were experts and didn't need to debate whether or not what they had was real just because Luke didn't write about it. Although Luke did. Whenever someone received tongues and glorified God, they just received the prayer and praise language. But when it says they spoke in tongues and prophesied, that included the gift of interpretation of tongues/prophecy.

 

[PollyJetix]

read carefully:

Acts 2:6-11
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The Word does not say it was a miracle in the hearing.
And it does not say that they heard it differently than it was spoken.

Yes, they were confounded. They were amazed, and marveled. And yes, they questioned how they were hearing their own languages.
But they recognized that those men were actually speaking their languages.

 

[1stcenturylady]

read carefully:

Acts 2:6-11
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The Word does not say it was a miracle in the hearing.
And it does not say that they heard it differently than it was spoken.

Yes, they were confounded. They were amazed, and marveled. And yes, they questioned how they were hearing their own languages.
But they recognized that those men were actually speaking their languages.

We either believe the standards or we don't. This is the truth: "
1 Corinthians 14:2
"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

That is the rule that the Day of Pentecost must be seen through.

Therefore, it should be read with this emphasis: "everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

Say there were three disciples speaking in tongues in Russian, Chinese and Vietnamese, respectfully. A Frenchman heard them all speaking French; an Englishman heard them all speaking English, and a German heard them all speaking German. How? Through the gift of interpretation of tongues. Both supernatural tongues and supernatural interpretation of tongues was present. Any other reasoning contradicts 1 Cor. 14:2. So the point is that on the Day of Pentecost no one understood naturally the languages being spoken.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks. I want to reply to this quote of yours :
"I venture to respectfully suggest that saying that the outsiders considered the tongues speakers in the Corinthian church mad as a sign to them is a bit of a stretch."

I am merely quoting scripture. "23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"

I understand that and agree. I guess I saw the quote of the Scripture as part of your context where you were discussing tongues as being a sign to unbelievers,

The statement of Paul about tongues being a sign to unbelievers has been the subject of debate for a long time, and has been interpreted in different ways. The problem is that Paul is not around to explain it. If I was in the Corinthian church and I read that letter and had a question about the statement I would have waiting until he arrived and then asked him what he meant and for him to explain it more fully to me. I am sure that he would have, and I would have had more clarity about it. So, we are not really going to arrive at a satisfactory answer to the debate about its meaning so we can settle the apparent incongruity between tongues being a sign to unbelievers and not speaking tongues in front of unbelievers when we are worshiping in church services. The two seem to contradict each other. Paul is not clear about when and where tongues are spoken that makes them a sign to unbelievers, and it cannot be in the church services that are made up of believers. But he does mention "uninitiated" people. I wonder if these are believers who have not yet received the Holy Spirit, say like those who had the baptism of John, and who had not learned that there is a Holy Spirit? I guess if they came into the Corinthian church and heard a whole lot of people speaking apparent gibberish, they would have doubts about their mental state! I just wonder if that is the attitude of many genuine believers who have never been taught about the Spiritual gifts coming into Pentecostal services where many people are speaking in tongues - that they go away thinking that these Pentecostals are not right in the head?

I was converted in the most lit-up, noisiest Pentecostal church in town. I had never been in a church like that before in my life. My father had been in an argument with Mormon missionaries, and when I went along to the Pentecostal church I thought that if I heard one American voice I was out of there! The guy who lead the chorus had a broad Scottish accent! God has a sense of humour! I found myself in the middle of 450 people all speaking in tongues and prophesying. I even saw a guy screaming like a stuck pig while a demon was cast out of him. The whole atmosphere fascinated me. But the gospel was preached in power, and I knew it was my night to accept Christ, and so I did. I had tongues explained to me early on, and I had no problem with it. About three weeks later I received the gift myself, and I have never looked back as far as tongues is concerned. It is a significant part of my prayer life. I knew it was really from God when around 13 years later I turned away from the Pentecostal church vowing to have nothing more to do with it. But I couldn't stop praying in tongues. It continued to flow out of me. That way I knew it was from the Holy Spirit in me and not just a phenomenon of the Pentecostal church.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I understand that and agree. I guess I saw the quote of the Scripture as part of your context where you were discussing tongues as being a sign to unbelievers,

The statement of Paul about tongues being a sign to unbelievers has been the subject of debate for a long time, and has been interpreted in different ways. The problem is that Paul is not around to explain it. If I was in the Corinthian church and I read that letter and had a question about the statement I would have waiting until he arrived and then asked him what he meant and for him to explain it more fully to me. I am sure that he would have, and I would have had more clarity about it. So, we are not really going to arrive at a satisfactory answer to the debate about its meaning so we can settle the apparent incongruity between tongues being a sign to unbelievers and not speaking tongues in front of unbelievers when we are worshiping in church services. The two seem to contradict each other. Paul is not clear about when and where tongues are spoken that makes them a sign to unbelievers, and it cannot be in the church services that are made up of believers. But he does mention "uninitiated" people. I wonder if these are believers who have not yet received the Holy Spirit, say like those who had the baptism of John, and who had not learned that there is a Holy Spirit? I guess if they came into the Corinthian church and heard a whole lot of people speaking apparent gibberish, they would have doubts about their mental state! I just wonder if that is the attitude of many genuine believers who have never been taught about the Spiritual gifts coming into Pentecostal services where many people are speaking in tongues - that they go away thinking that these Pentecostals are not right in the head?

I was converted in the most lit-up, noisiest Pentecostal church in town. I had never been in a church like that before in my life. My father had been in an argument with Mormon missionaries, and when I went along to the Pentecostal church I thought that if I heard one American voice I was out of there! The guy who lead the chorus had a broad Scottish accent! God has a sense of humour! I found myself in the middle of 450 people all speaking in tongues and prophesying. I even saw a guy screaming like a stuck pig while a demon was cast out of him. The whole atmosphere fascinated me. But the gospel was preached in power, and I knew it was my night to accept Christ, and so I did. I had tongues explained to me early on, and I had no problem with it. About three weeks later I received the gift myself, and I have never looked back as far as tongues is concerned. It is a significant part of my prayer life. I knew it was really from God when around 13 years later I turned away from the Pentecostal church vowing to have nothing more to do with it. But I couldn't stop praying in tongues. It continued to flow out of me. That way I knew it was from the Holy Spirit in me and not just a phenomenon of the Pentecostal church.

That is why I like to call myself Charismatic, but the administration of this site converts that to word of faith and that is just wrong. I sure wish they would change that little glitch. There are many Pentecostal churches I don't care for. Pentecostal is a wide umbrella of many different emphasizes. My favorite is Church On The Way, a Foursquare Church in Van Nuys, California. My pastor for many years there was Dr. Jack Hayford. I'm now in Tennessee and just recently tried a new Pentecostal church called Bethel. It is not an off-shoot of the one in Redding, California, but I did experience a healing this last Sunday. My shoulder has been out of place for about a year, and their was a word of knowledge that bones were going back into place. I had pain in my shoulder before the word, but none afterwards. Now maybe I can go swimming and use that arm! Praise God.

As for vs. 21 which starts out retelling a judgment, then 22 saying tongues is a sign to the unbeliever, and 23 saying how those unbelievers will react to tongues, it is clear to me that if tongues was a positive sign, then vs 23 would give a different response to them. But such a negative response means it was a sign which is spoken against, and their response confirms their unbelief. Anyway, if you don't see it that way, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, what are you doing up so late? Good night.

 

[PollyJetix]

We either believe the standards or we don't. This is the truth: "
1 Corinthians 14:2
"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

That is the rule that the Day of Pentecost must be seen through.

Therefore, it should be read with this emphasis: "everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

Say there were three disciples speaking in tongues in Russian, Chinese and Vietnamese, respectfully. A Frenchman heard them all speaking French; an Englishman heard them all speaking English, and a German heard them all speaking German. How? Through the gift of interpretation of tongues. Both supernatural tongues and supernatural interpretation of tongues was present. Any other reasoning contradicts 1 Cor. 14:2. So the point is that on the Day of Pentecost no one understood naturally the languages being spoken.

You are contradicting yourself.
First, you demand that we adhere strictly to the definition of tongues, as if ALL speaking-in-tongues must NOT be understood by anyone else.
And then, you say this is what happened on the Day of Pentecost, that the crowd around could not understand those who spoke in tongues.
But the text says they DID understand... somehow.

it seems this has gotten somehow flipped in your mind, that if they heard them SPEAK in their own languages, THAT would have been understanding the tongues...but if those tongues were a language other than their own, they could not have understood them naturally... so the fact that they obviously DID understand, has to be explained by saying it was supernatural hearing. So if they understood by supernatural means other than the actual speaking being in their own language, then the tongues aren't actually being understood. When they are.

You don't have to jump through those convoluted hoops.
Look more closely at 1 Cor 14:2.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The function of tongues is that we are speaking to God, not to people.
Notice the word FOR.
It means BECAUSE.

This is why the word is used at this point:
The reason we are speaking TO God, and not TO man, is because when we speak in tongues, our spirit does not expect to be understood by anyone else.

We speak in tongues, not TO men, but TO God, BECAUSE tongues is not birthed out of human understanding, nor is it directed toward human understanding.

However, God can open the understanding of someone standing by, so that another person CAN understand it, whether by hearing their own language (as we speak it supernaturally) or by understanding supernaturally (which is the gift of interpretation.) Both of these are gifts of the Spirit. Unbelievers are not given these gifts.

I have heard numerous examples of both of these happening in modern times.
There was a little girl in Central America who received the Holy Ghost, and began to shout "Praise the Lord!" in perfect English. She knew no English at all.

In a service where an American teenager received the Holy Ghost, he began weeping and praising the Lord in perfect Spanish... and he knew no Spanish. (I heard him do it.)

In my own church, there was a mother-in-law of a Koren bride, who knew very little English. The Mother-in-law knew absolutely no Korean. This Korean was feeling very homesick, and lonely. She could not communicate with anyone except her husband, living here in America.

And one day, the mother-in-law was in prayer at home, and the Spirit fell on her... she began to shout and sing and pray in tongues, for quite a long period of time... and the young Korean woman began to get very excited. She listened intently for the whole while, with tears of joy. Then she ran upstairs and got the Korean Bible, and read it the rest of the day.

When the husband got home that evening, his Korean wife told him what had happened. God had spoken to her through the mother-in-law, in perfect Korean, for a long time, telling her that He had not forgotten her, that she was not alone in this strange land, and that He loved her deeply.

The mother-in-law was speaking to God, BECAUSE she didn't expect anyone else to understand her. But she had no idea she was speaking perfect Korean, and was blessing her daughter-in-law.

I have heard many such accounts.

In my own tongues, I sometimes hear myself say words like "Jesu" or "Yeshua", and "Elohim" quite often. I know what those words mean. But I do not intentionally frame those words. I just observe as they fly by.

 

[PollyJetix]

...The problem is that Paul is not around to explain it. If I was in the Corinthian church and I read that letter and had a question about the statement I would have waiting until he arrived and then asked him what he meant and for him to explain it more fully to me. I am sure that he would have, and I would have had more clarity about it. So, we are not really going to arrive at a satisfactory answer to the debate about its meaning so we can settle the apparent incongruity between tongues being a sign to unbelievers and not speaking tongues in front of unbelievers when we are worshiping in church services. The two seem to contradict each other. Paul is not clear about when and where tongues are spoken that makes them a sign to unbelievers, and it cannot be in the church services that are made up of believers. But he does mention "uninitiated" people. I wonder if these are believers who have not yet received the Holy Spirit, say like those who had the baptism of John, and who had not learned that there is a Holy Spirit? I guess if they came into the Corinthian church and heard a whole lot of people speaking apparent gibberish, they would have doubts about their mental state! I just wonder if that is the attitude of many genuine believers who have never been taught about the Spiritual gifts coming into Pentecostal services where many people are speaking in tongues - that they go away thinking that these Pentecostals are not right in the head?

I was converted in the most lit-up, noisiest Pentecostal church in town...

I love this. You put into words very well what I have been unable to articulate.
This chapter has been mishandled, especially by anti-Pentecostals, seeking to squelch the gifts that scare them.

And, admittedly, the wide-open Pentecostal churches tend not to run high on IQ.
But then, Paul DID say that not many of the wise of this world are called. People who enjoy high IQ scores tend to rely on human reasoning, and have a hard time receiving the things of the Spirit.

I wonder what drove you away from the Pentecostal church?
Of course, Pentecostals can be quite carnal, as illustrated by 1 Corinthians.
Lots of infighting, schisms, sexual sin, etc. Most of us would have written such a church off.
But Paul didn't give up on them. He never even told them their tongues were "of the devil!"
He never told them they had an evil spirit. He just told them to grow up.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You are contradicting yourself.
First, you demand that we adhere strictly to the definition of tongues, as if ALL speaking-in-tongues must NOT be understood by anyone else.
And then, you say this is what happened on the Day of Pentecost, that the crowd around could not understand those who spoke in tongues.
But the text says they DID understand... somehow.

it seems this has gotten somehow flipped in your mind, that if they heard them SPEAK in their own languages, THAT would have been understanding the tongues...but if those tongues were a language other than their own, they could not have understood them naturally... so the fact that they obviously DID understand, has to be explained by saying it was supernatural hearing. So if they understood by supernatural means other than the actual speaking being in their own language, then the tongues aren't actually being understood. When they are.

You don't have to jump through those convoluted hoops.
Look more closely at 1 Cor 14:2.



The function of tongues is that we are speaking to God, not to people.
Notice the word FOR.
It means BECAUSE.

This is why the word is used at this point:
The reason we are speaking TO God, and not TO man, is because when we speak in tongues, our spirit does not expect to be understood by anyone else.

We speak in tongues, not TO men, but TO God, BECAUSE tongues is not birthed out of human understanding, nor is it directed toward human understanding.

However, God can open the understanding of someone standing by, so that another person CAN understand it, whether by hearing their own language (as we speak it supernaturally) or by understanding supernaturally (which is the gift of interpretation.) Both of these are gifts of the Spirit. Unbelievers are not given these gifts.

I have heard numerous examples of both of these happening in modern times.
There was a little girl in Central America who received the Holy Ghost, and began to shout "Praise the Lord!" in perfect English. She knew no English at all.

In a service where an American teenager received the Holy Ghost, he began weeping and praising the Lord in perfect Spanish... and he knew no Spanish. (I heard him do it.)

In my own church, there was a mother-in-law of a Koren bride, who knew very little English. The Mother-in-law knew absolutely no Korean. This Korean was feeling very homesick, and lonely. She could not communicate with anyone except her husband, living here in America.

And one day, the mother-in-law was in prayer at home, and the Spirit fell on her... she began to shout and sing and pray in tongues, for quite a long period of time... and the young Korean woman began to get very excited. She listened intently for the whole while, with tears of joy. Then she ran upstairs and got the Korean Bible, and read it the rest of the day.

When the husband got home that evening, his Korean wife told him what had happened. God had spoken to her through the mother-in-law, in perfect Korean, for a long time, telling her that He had not forgotten her, that she was not alone in this strange land, and that He loved her deeply.

The mother-in-law was speaking to God, BECAUSE she didn't expect anyone else to understand her. But she had no idea she was speaking perfect Korean, and was blessing her daughter-in-law.

I have heard many such accounts.

In my own tongues, I sometimes hear myself say words like "Jesu" or "Yeshua", and "Elohim" quite often. I know what those words mean. But I do not intentionally frame those words. I just observe as they fly by.

I've already explained all this but I'll try again.

I HAVE TO adhere to the word of God because I love Him, and Jesus said if you love Me keep my commandments. This is a commandment, a truth. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS NATURALLY THE PRAYER AND PRAISE LANGUAGE. The Word says so. So if someone does understand, that understanding is supernatural and the word tells us how! The gift of interpretation of tongues. The Korean woman HEARD supernaturally according to scripture, even if her mind told her it was Korean she heard. The other woman speaking in tongues could have actually been speaking Russian, but the Korean woman HEARD KOREAN.

This is a case in point that we would rather go by our experience, even if it contradicts God's word. I won't do that, but I have believed just like you are for a long time. But when I realized what I was believing was contradicting the WRITTEN WORD, I asked God, why? He told me, and what He said, was exactly there the whole time. Dangerous! Beware of adding to God's word.

Do not lean on your own understanding, but rest on the word of God that it is true.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I love this. You put into words very well what I have been unable to articulate.
This chapter has been mishandled, especially by anti-Pentecostals, seeking to squelch the gifts that scare them.

And, admittedly, the wide-open Pentecostal churches tend not to run high on IQ.
But then, Paul DID say that not many of the wise of this world are called. People who enjoy high IQ scores tend to rely on human reasoning, and have a hard time receiving the things of the Spirit.

I wonder what drove you away from the Pentecostal church?
Of course, Pentecostals can be quite carnal, as illustrated by 1 Corinthians.
Lots of infighting, schisms, sexual sin, etc. Most of us would have written such a church off.
But Paul didn't give up on them. He never even told them their tongues were "of the devil!"
He never told them they had an evil spirit. He just told them to grow up.

Just curious, what are you implying at the end. You said, Paul just told them to grow up, not that they had an evil spirit. Are you saying that they DID have an evil spirit, but Paul just told them to grow up? Or that they didn't have an evil spirit as cessationists claim.

I see you agree with Polly, therefore, what I wrote to her is to you too.

By the way, my IQ is very high and the reason I am a Pentecostal is because I can understand truths in the Bible and will not go just by human reasoning the was cessationists do. They willfully refuse to believe God's word is applying to them. I'm also very much in awe of God, and will never say something is of the devil when God says it belongs to Him.

 

[PollyJetix]

Just curious, what are you implying at the end. You said, Paul just told them to grow up, not that they had an evil spirit. Are you saying that they DID have an evil spirit, but Paul just told them to grow up? Or that they didn't have an evil spirit as cessationists claim.

I see you agree with Polly, therefore, what I wrote to her is to you too.

By the way, my IQ is very high and the reason I am a Pentecostal is because I can understand truths in the Bible and will not go just by human reasoning the was cessationists do. They willfully refuse to believe God's word is applying to them. I'm also very much in awe of God, and will never say something is of the devil when God says it belongs to Him.

Anti-Pentecostals often warn that if tongues are spoken "out of order" then those tongues are of the devil. But Paul never said that. Thus, they add to the Word of God.

I have a high IQ too. ( 2 Corinthians 11:17-18 )
But high IQ's are not an asset when trying to receive spiritual revelation (understanding Scripture.)
(1 Corinthians 1:19-31 and 1 Corinthians 2.)

 

[1stcenturylady]

Anti-Pentecostals often warn that if tongues are spoken "out of order" then those tongues are of the devil. But Paul never said that. Thus, they add to the Word of God.

I have a high IQ too. ( 2 Corinthians 11:17-18 )
But high IQ's are not an asset when trying to receive spiritual revelation (understanding Scripture.)
(1 Corinthians 1:19-31 and 1 Corinthians 2.)

I mentioned the IQ because you said that most Pentecostals have low IQs. That was appalling. But I am smart enough not to misinterpret the written word when it contradicts established scripture.

 

[PollyJetix]

I've already explained all this but I'll try again.

I HAVE TO adhere to the word of God because I love Him, and Jesus said if you love Me keep my commandments. This is a commandment, a truth. NO ONE UNDERSTANDS NATURALLY THE PRAYER AND PRAISE LANGUAGE. The Word says so. So if someone does understand, that understanding is supernatural and the word tells us how! The gift of interpretation of tongues. The Korean woman HEARD supernaturally according to scripture, even if her mind told her it was Korean she heard. The other woman speaking in tongues could have actually been speaking Russian, but the Korean woman HEARD KOREAN.

This is a case in point that we would rather go by our experience, even if it contradicts God's word. I won't do that, but I have believed just like you are for a long time. But when I realized what I was believing was contradicting the WRITTEN WORD, I asked God, why? He told me, and what He said, was exactly there the whole time. Dangerous! Beware of adding to God's word.

Do not lean on your own understanding, but rest on the word of God that it is true.

There is a very easy way to tell if someone is actually speaking the language you are hearing.
It's called, "watching the mouth."

Haven't you ever watched a speaker as he was being translated?
You would never have said you heard him speak your language.

 

[PollyJetix]

I mentioned the IQ because Oscar said that most Pentecostals have low IQs. That was appalling.

I think I was the one who said that, not Oscar.
I'm sorry it is appalling to you.
But it's the truth.
And the Bible says the same thing.
Not many wise are called.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think I was the one who said that, not Oscar.
I'm sorry it is appalling to you.
But it's the truth.
And the Bible says the same thing.
Not many wise are called.

I would be careful not to insult people because of their denomination. I'm Pentecostal, so according to you I have a low IQ and am not wise? Yes, your saying that is appalling. BTW I had already edited out Oscar's name and put you when I saw my mistake.

You seem to want to argue against the word of God, so tell me what does this verse mean to you?

1 Corinthians 14:2New King James Version (NKJV)

2 "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

 

[PollyJetix]

I would be careful not to insult people because of their denomination. I'm Pentecostal, so according to you I have a low IQ and am not wise? Yes, your saying that is appalling. BTW I had already edited out Oscar's name and put you when I saw my mistake.

It's only an insult when one has the same values as the world.
I am a Pentecostal to the core, by the grace of God.
I was raised anti-pentecostal, in a very reason-based, IQ-valuing denomination. The Conservative Mennonites. Everything that comes over the pulpit there is very reasoned, very well-modulated, and appealing to a high IQ.

But I came smack-up against the power of the Holy Ghost, and had to make a choice: Am I going to define myself by the standards of the world, and lean on my human reasoning in my approach to God and the Bible? Or am I going to do like Paul said in I Cor 2, and know nothing but Christ, and Him crucified? Am I going to speak with the wisdom which man teaches, or am I going to lean only on the wisdom which the Holy Ghost teaches? Am I going to look for high-IQ seminary-educated preaching, or am I going to look for miracles, signs, and wonders?

Because we can't have it both ways.

It's not an insult to tell one who has died to his pride, that those who believe the Word of God and operate in the power of the Spirit, tend to have lower IQ's than those who refuse to believe to that extent.