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swordsman1

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Read the verse again. It doesn't say Paul spoke in tongues alone. All it says is that he practiced it outside the church. He doesn't say where. There are two options:

1. He could done it in private at home. But that would be contrary to the purpose of spiritual gifts to benefit others (1 Pet 4:10, 1 Cor 12:7)

2 He could have done it publicly in the streets and market places on his missionary journeys as a miraculous sign to others that God was with him (Mark 16:17,20).

One is in full accordance with the stated purpose of spiritual gifts and the other one isn't. Which do you think is more likely?


Lets look at that passage in detail:

v13 "For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say"

What reason? see v12 - so that the church is edified. All tongues speaking should be interpreted so that the church may be edified.

v14 "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."

Because praying in tongues on its own is deficient - but my mind is unfruitful.

v15 "So what shall I do?"

Here comes the solution....

v15 "I will pray with my spirit , but I will also pray with my understanding "

I will pray in tongues, followed by an interpreted prayer (as v13 says) so that I and everyone else can understand it.

v16 "Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,say “Amen” to your thanksgiving"

Otherwise if you pray in tongues on its own, nobody can say "Amen" to your public prayer.

v17 "You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified."

If you pray in tongues on its own, your prayer is genuine, but nobody else is edified.




The sign gifts are for our own edification and done alone.

Where does it say that?
 
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PollyJetix

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That's a great story. But much of it is unbiblical.
It's only unbiblical if you hold the correct interpretation of the Bible.
But what you claim to be Biblical, has no power.

1Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

See? You come with man's wisdom. I appeal to the power of God flowing through me, as it has been proved to work.
You say it is unbiblical. Even though it was obviously miraculous, and saved a man's life, and pointed him to put his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Yet, you are determined your explanations, and the explanations of those scholars outweigh the obvious supernatural power at work to save a man from dying and going to hell.

Your faith seems to stand in the wisdom of man's ability to reason out what I Corinthians 14 means, in opposition to all proof otherwise. Your faith seems to stand in what those linguists prejudiced against glossolalia say, in scholarly wisdom.
I say, phooey on your brainiac linguists, who would condemn a baby repeating "Mama, Dada" as if he were not speaking true language... who would condemn the uneducated backward mountain people, speaking their own dialects with imperfect syntax and incorrect pronunciation, as not really using a true language.
1Cor 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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It's a pity that Paul is not around to explain what he meant about the way he spoke in tongues outside of the church.
 
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PollyJetix

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It's a pity that Paul is not around to explain what he meant about the way he spoke in tongues outside of the church.
I wonder if he would be given space to speak, seeing so many are so opinionated on the subject.
 
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Our friend would say that every manifestation that occurred in all the historical revivals are unbiblical as well. Wesley felt a strange warming in his heart which was the result of his conversion to Christ. Oh! He must be a fake because what he felt was unblblical!! What about the Quakers? They shook under the power of the Spirit; that's why they were called Quakers! They must have been fake as well because shaking under the power is not biblical either. The Welsh revival had all sorts of shaking, falling down, and other manifestations that are not found in the New Testament. Are we to call the Welsh Revival fake as well? Did you know that the Open Brethren church, one of today's most fiercely cessationist churches, had the same manifestations in its foundation years. The same with the Salvation Army. Who would be so arrogant as to accuse these movements of being false just because they don't agree with one's personal interpretation of the Bible.
 
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I wonder if he would be given space to speak, seeing so many are so opinionated on the subject.
Modern cessationist hockey pucks would call him a false apostle if he turned up today speaking in tongues.
 
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swordsman1

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How do you know those things you described are from God - the unseen power rocking you back and forth, the feeling of water rushing through you, your falling down, your uninterpreted tongues, etc? None of it is biblical. How do you know it wasn't just something psychological?

Is your 2nd hand unsubstantiated story meant to be proof to me that modern glossolalia is from God (even though it is unbiblical)? Such stories are ten a penny. Prove it from scripture and I might be convinced.
 
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PollyJetix

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Even if I would find the very same happening in Scripture, you would claim that it is unbiblical for it to happen today.
I'm not going to take this any further. It's a waste of time, and I have cast my pearls before one who tramples them in the dirt.
 
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1stcenturylady

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What a powerful testimony, Polly. And COMPLETELY biblical.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Even if I would find the very same happening in Scripture, you would claim that it is unbiblical for it to happen today.
I'm not going to take this any further. It's a waste of time, and I have cast my pearls before one who tramples them in the dirt.

Good for you. I laid my cards on the table earlier. I had just been on another post with an atheist and it was a pointless discussion then too. The fool says in his heart there is no God, and the uninformed will say "No thanks, God." I don't have time for either. I will be happy to teach anyone who wants EVERYTHING God has for them, and not scrutinize and mock His gifts. It's funny to hear someone say something is not biblical when they don't understand the Bible.
 
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PollyJetix

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Amen, sister. "Brush the dust off the feet."
"Leave them alone."
 
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1stcenturylady

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Okay, I'll bite this one last time. But I guarantee, you can't understand if you don't believe. I expect you to give some human reasoning and interpretation, not of the Spirit. But here goes.

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding (interpretation). I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding (interpretation).
 
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swordsman1

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These verses are nothing to do with tongues. The word 'tongues' is never mentioned in Ephesians or Jude. Praying in the Spirit here is praying in your native language.

Eph 6:18 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people."

How can you make requests for the Lord's people if you don't know what you are saying?

If praying in the Spirit was tongues then every time we pray we should only pray in tongues and never in English - "on all occasions" it says.

No, praying in the Spirit simply means praying with the Spirit's leading. Same as we walk in the Spirit, and worship in the Spirit.



The spirit in 1 Cor 14:14-15 is the human spirit, not the Holy Spirit. v14 "my spirit prays"
 
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PollyJetix

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"on all occasions' does NOT have the meaning of "ONLY in that manner."
It means to pray in tongues on all occasions. It doesn't mean to eliminate prayer in English on those occasions.
As I Cor 14 says, pray with the spirit, and also pray with the understanding.
You can't do both at the same time. The context proves that.
"With the spirit" is obviously defined by the context as "in tongues".
And since the context also says clearly that "if I pray in tongues, my understanding is unfruitful", then it stands to reason that praying "with the spirit" which is "in tongues" is also "without fruitful understanding."
You need to read those verses more closely, and let it define its own terms, as good interpretation requires.
 
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swordsman1

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"all occasions" means all occasions - ie every time you pray. We should always pray with the Holy Spirit's leading. But not pray in tongues every time you pray! That would also have been impossible because not everyone had the gift of tongues (see 1 Cor 12:30 and many other verses).

The spirit in 1 Cor 14:14-15 is the human spirit, not the Holy Spirit. v14 "my spirit prays"
 
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PollyJetix

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...not everyone had the gift of tongues (see 1 Cor 12:30 and many other verses).
Not true.
I Corinthians 12:30 is the bottom of a larger list. And it has a context. Let's read:
Notice it says "are all prophets?" Does this mean that not all can prophesy?
Look at 1 Cor 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
Obviously, the list given at the end of chapter 12 was precisely what the Lord said: These were "some set in the church."
This list is obviously a list of offices, with spiritual gifts specially for those offices. Not all are apostles. But all are "sent ones'. Not all are teachers. But all do teach at some point or other. Not all speak with tongues... but "I would that ye all spake with tongues!" And "not all prophesy", yet, even though Paul (or rather the Holy Ghost, who inspired the Word!) woudl that all spoke in tongues, yet he would rather that we all prophesy! And we are to covet earnestly the best gifts... which most non-Pentecostals claim is prophecy... yet, not all can prophesy, according to their teachings concerning that list in chapter 12.

Which is it? Can all prophesy? Then all can speak in tongues.
And it is the will not only of Paul, but of the HOLY GHOST, that all speak with tongues!

The spirit in 1 Cor 14:14-15 is the human spirit, not the Holy Spirit. v14 "my spirit prays"
Yes? No problem. When we pray in tongues, it's our spirit praying, without the brain running interference.
I do not claim that when I speak in tongues, that it's GOD doing the praying.

This changes nothing.
I Corinthians 14:14 defines clearly that when I pray in tongues, I pray with my spirit, but I do not understand.
I Corinthians 14:16 defines clearly that if I bless God with the spirit, he who sits by does not understand.

How in the world, then, can you claim to be interpreting Scripture correctly, when you claim that verse 15 means something entirely different, when it talks about praying with the spirit, and with the understanding?

The context defines praying in/with the spirit as NOT praying with the understanding!

You can't do both at the same time!
 
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1stcenturylady

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Just as I expected. You refuse to believe in praying in the Spirit. Your human reasoning says it is your native language, even though it says Spirit. I'm done. Paul said it best, "Let him who is ignorant, remain ignorant."
 
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1stcenturylady

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Go for it, but I'm done.
 
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