Speaking in Tongues

[C.F.W. Walther]

This just triggers other questions because of other unusual things that I've noticed. Charismatics supposedly we're a spawn of the RC church and the RC church also has unusual phenomenen. Mary appearing to people, stigmata, possession, Christ appearing on walls or pictures. Makes me wonder why these things happen. It's allmost as if they are pointing to themselves and basicly saying "we are the only true way because we are the only ones that have signs and wonders", or "We are the only ones that count because you can see the battle between good and evil in our midst". I don't see it that way. I just see it as a minifestation of something else.

 

[The Princess Bride]

Now, I know I am going to get flamed for posting this in the Lutheran forum without being Lutheran, but oh well...lol


I am Non-Denom. and in my church people DO operate in the gift of speaking in tongues. On the flip side, my BF is Lutheran, and he and I were discussing this very topic a few days ago. He thinks (for the most part) it is gibberish, which is one reason I avoid praying in tongues around him.

In my church,we believe there is the proper time and place for such things.

1 Corinthians 14:1-25

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

This is the verse that my church strongly operates on. Praying in tongues in private is encouraged, however, praying aloud or standing to give a word, is not, UNLESS there is an interpretation.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

To me, sometimes it is easier to pray in tongues, esp. when I have been scared or woken in the middle of the night with a burden to pray for someone.

I dont know why I said all that! I guess my basic point it: God gives it to us to use in the appropriate situation.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Usually these dicsuiions are sent to the general forum but in this case unless anyone else objects I think it's appropriate since we Lutherans don't ever run from a good conversation.

Here is the LCMS answer to the gifts. Any questions and we'll be glad to reply. http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2199

Gifts of the Spirit

Q. What is the Missouri Synod's view on speaking in tongues, prophecy, and faith healing?
A. The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod readily grants that at times in the past God has certainly bestowed upon his church certain "extraordinary gifts" of the Spirit (such as those mentioned in this question), and that it is certainly possible for God to grant those gifts still today. At the same time, the LCMS emphasizes that we have no promise in Scripture that God will grant all of the gifts of the Spirit to his church in all times and places, and it has expressed serious concerns about the unbiblical teachings and activities which have often accompanied claims regarding these gifts in the charismatic movement today.
The theological commission of the LCMS has prepared three reports on this topic: The Charismatic Movement and Lutheran Theology (1972), The Lutheran Church and the Charismatic Movement (1977) and Spiritual Gifts (1994).

 

[Jim47]

Ac 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Ac 2:2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
Ac 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Ac 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Ac 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Ac 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?


What many people fail to read or understand is the verses above that are in bold/underlined. The believers assembled at Pentecost were not just babbling some odd sounds, they were actually speaking in other languages. Is that what you folks do? Do you speak in German, French, Russian or some other language?

I am not trying to find fault here, I would just really like to know the truth.

 

[The Princess Bride]

Usually these dicsuiions are sent to the general forum but in this case unless anyone else objects I think it's appropriate since we Lutherans don't ever run from a good conversation.

Here is the LCMS answer to the gifts. Any questions and we'll be glad to reply. http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2199

Gifts of the Spirit

Q. What is the Missouri Synod's view on speaking in tongues, prophecy, and faith healing?
A. The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod readily grants that at times in the past God has certainly bestowed upon his church certain "extraordinary gifts" of the Spirit (such as those mentioned in this question), and that it is certainly possible for God to grant those gifts still today. At the same time, the LCMS emphasizes that we have no promise in Scripture that God will grant all of the gifts of the Spirit to his church in all times and places, and it has expressed serious concerns about the unbiblical teachings and activities which have often accompanied claims regarding these gifts in the charismatic movement today.
The theological commission of the LCMS has prepared three reports on this topic: The Charismatic Movement and Lutheran Theology (1972), The Lutheran Church and the Charismatic Movement (1977) and Spiritual Gifts (1994).

Cool, thanks, I will read up on these.

Ac 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Ac 2:2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
Ac 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Ac 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Ac 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Ac 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?


What many people fail to read or understand is the verses above that are in bold/underlined. The believers assembled at Pentecost were not just babbling some odd sounds, they were actually speaking in other languages. Is that what you folks do? Do you speak in German, French, Russian or some other language?

I am not trying to find fault here, I would just really like to know the truth.

I have often wondered the same thing myself....

Acts 2:17-21

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

When I look at verses like that...Speaking in Tongues seems more of a minor thing in comparision to Prophecy, Visions, and Dreams...Not that it isnt important, but I guess I just don't understand why gifts of the Spirit seem to get such a bad rap at times...

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

I don't think anyone in here is giving the gifts a bad rep. It's the abuse of the "proclaimed" gifts by some denoms that brings up hard questions of authenticity.

When I look at verses like that...Speaking in Tongues seems more of a minor thing in comparision to Prophecy, Visions, and Dreams...Not that it isnt important, but I guess I just don't understand why gifts of the Spirit seem to get such a bad rap at times...

Actually you've answered you own question. Just because of the emphasis on some gifts that are not essential to salvation. Everyone doesn't receive the same gifts. If a person edifies himself and not the church then what is the point. It's not about us it's about God.

 

[SPALATIN]

I don't think anyone in here is giving the gifts a bad rep. It's the abuse of the "proclaimed" gifts by some denoms that brings up hard questions of authenticity.




Actually you've answered you own question. Just because of the emphasis on some gifts that are not essential to salvation. Everyone doesn't receive the same gifts. If a person edifies himself and not the church then what is the point. It's not about us it's about God.

You must spread some reputation around before giving to Radidio again.

Excellent answer!

 

[The Princess Bride]

I don't think anyone in here is giving the gifts a bad rep. It's the abuse of the "proclaimed" gifts by some denoms that brings up hard questions of authenticity.




Actually you've answered you own question. Just because of the emphasis on some gifts that are not essential to salvation. Everyone doesn't receive the same gifts. If a person edifies himself and not the church then what is the point. It's not about us it's about God.

So I did! lol....

Honestly, my biggest frustration with the whole thing, is when people question me if I am TRULY operating in the giftings God has given me or if I am just "making it up", ie. Speaking in Tongues.

That makes me mad, When people question the validity of my faith and giftings. I feel like shouting at them to deal with the plank in their eye before trying to pick out the speck in mine!

*Ends rant....

 

[LilLamb219]

or if I am just "making it up", ie. Speaking in Tongues

Since the vast majority of those claiming to speak in tongues are fake or unbiblical, maybe you should see it from their side and be a little more patient with their questioning?

 

[The Princess Bride]

Since the vast majority of those claiming to speak in tongues are fake or unbiblical, maybe you should see it from their side and be a little more patient with their questioning?

I do try, one reason why I only pray in tongues when I am alone, or with other people who believe in praying on tongues.

I can't recall the verse reference, but I try to keep in mind where Paul talks about if you do something that offends or disvalidates your brother or sister in Christ's convictions, that you are responsible to not cause offense to them, if it is within your control.
I.e...people who dont believe in speaking/praying in tongues, I in turn DONT pray in tongues around them.

I am personally responsible for how my actions affect another, and because of that, I strive to not "rock the theological boat" when I can. Other times, you gotta put your foot down though.

But yes, I do see where you are coming from.

The only verse that comes to mind about how to deal with it is 1 Thess. 5: 21
"Test all things; hold fast to what is good."

Of course we are to test everything as to whether it is from God or not, and if it is, it will be proven to be good.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

So I did! lol....

Honestly, my biggest frustration with the whole thing, is when people question me if I am TRULY operating in the giftings God has given me or if I am just "making it up", ie. Speaking in Tongues.

That makes me mad, When people question the validity of my faith and giftings. I feel like shouting at them to deal with the plank in their eye before trying to pick out the speck in mine!

*Ends rant....

Nobody is questioning the validity of your gifts and nobody is critizing you. I'm making statements that apply to the people that abuse it. Nobody is going to change your mind on what you believe but ask youself this. Havn't you seen abuse and with the gift of discernment havn't you discerned that some people arn't quite as honest as they shoud be about gifts? Also pose this question. In the denoms that practice special gifts have you noticed considerable controversy? Evangelists and ministers that are frauds, use coersion, very questionable theology, exorbitant amounts of money for there ministry that doesn't go back into it, stay pirmarily in the OT instead of the NT, get caught and arrested for illegal activities, bilking members for millions of dollars,,,,,,,,,,,,,I could go on. Yes we are ALL sinfull but it runs rampent in denoms like, Non-Denominational, Pentecoastal, A&G and Charismatic.

Actually I'm getting tired of responding to this post because I know first hand of the problems in these churches and it's useless even talking to people that are indoctrinated in the razle-dazle, happy-clappy, Jesus is my lover, self centered instead of Christ centered, name it and claim it denoms. I've been around them for years and watched the bilking of thousands of parishoners and leading them down the road to eternal death.

 

[The Princess Bride]

Radidio,
It was not my intention to cause you frustration or start an arguement here.

I guess I just have a gazillion questions and dont know when to shut up! lol...

I by no means meant that anyone HERE on CF made me feel angered, I was referring to people I actually know. I.e My grandfather, who is Catholic. (long story on that).
Actually, I have found everyone here to be quite encourgaging or challenged (in a good way) my beliefs.

But I do agree with you, There are a LOT of people who abuse God's gifts, which is very sad.
I suppose it is just up to each of us to be close to the Heart of God, and allow Him to guide us, and give us discernment concerning these things.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Well we will try to be a little more charitable

What other questions do you have?

One thing aobut those denoms I've mentioned above is that they are VERY legalistic. Any law in the Bible has to be followed explicitely. Something akin to the OT rabinical laws. When we are saved we love God so much that we try to keep his commandments becaude we love him and not because we are under the law. We are new testament Christians and saved by God's saving grace and not convicted under the law.

ie: I was dating a pentecostal lady a couple of years ago and she said that she loved me but that she could not marry me because I had been divorced unbilicly. I will not go into details but I asked my pastor and he said that since I was truly repentent he didn't see any problem with it. My sins were forgiven as far as the east is from the west and since I was repentent the sin didn't exist. In the penetecostal denom that sin was allways there and I could not remarry so I figured if the sin was still there then why ask forgivness for something that wouldn't dissapear and would be basicly an unforgivable/unforgetable spot on my life. They were basicaly trying to take away the saving grace of God so I just told the lady that she had missed a good thing

 

[The Princess Bride]

Well we will try to be a little more charitable

What other questions do you have?

One thing aobut those denoms I've mentioned above is that they are VERY legalistic. Any law in the Bible has to be followed explicitely. Something akin to the OT rabinical laws. When we are saved we love God so much that we try to keep his commandments becaude we love him and not because we are under the law. We are new testament Christians and saved by God's saving grace and not convicted under the law.

Thank you for saying that! So true!

ie: I was dating a pentecostal lady a couple of years ago and she said that she loved me but that she could not marry me because I had been divorced unbilicly. I will not go into details but I asked my pastor and he said that since I was truly repentent he didn't see any problem with it. My sins were forgiven as far as the east is from the west and since I was repentent the sin didn't exist. In the penetecostal denom that sin was allways there and I could not remarry so I figured if the sin was still there then why ask forgivness for something that wouldn't dissapear and would be basicly an unforgivable/unforgetable spot on my life. They were basicaly trying to take away the saving grace of God so I just told the lady that she had missed a good thing

Amen.
I detest it when people grossley distort the Bible and what it means.

If Christ came to save us from our sins, and us entering into heaven is based on salvation and relationship, and not works. Why is it that when people who are stuck with an OT mindset and "playing" the part of a Christian, see someone who is truly walking the Christian walk, try to bash them for it and pull them back down to OT ideologies?

If God has forgiven a person, end of story! No need to drag it on.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

OK---I went over to the non-denoms, charismatics etc forums and read what they had to say on the subject. I did this on the advice of The Princess Bride and it just reinforces my observations of discernment.

Gifts can be abused because they point to self and promote "puffing up". The devil can be alive and well in these situations and belive it or not he is real.

We as Lutherans allmost without fail assign the devil to a very minor roll, and rightly so, because we take ourselves out of the equation and put Christ at the center. The opposite happens in the above mentioned denoms. This gives him power to feed on their sellf-centered concerns and then uses the gifts against them as in the abuses of discernment and gifts of knowledge--------all the gifts. It makes them believe they are more important than they really are. We are fallen, sinfull man and not god prospects.

Satan also fuels their paranoia on keeping the letter of the law. If they don't keep the law to a tee then they have unfounded guilt trips and satan uses this to make them feel inadequate and less of a Christian. Satan is devious and works covertly and not overtly like people think. He's not stupid.

I've even noticed this concern among their own members as stated in their forums so I know they realize somthing is amiss.

 

[The Princess Bride]

OK---I went over to the non-denoms, charismatics etc forums and read what they had to say on the subject. I did this on the advice of The Princess Bride and it just reinforces my observations of discernment.

Gifts can be abused because they point to self and promote "puffing up". The devil can be alive and well in these situations and belive it or not he is real.

Exactly! That is why we shouldn't try to build God INTO OUR life, but build our Life AROUND GOD!

The key here is "can be abused" just because SOME people may abuse it, doesnt mean everyone does.

We as Lutherans allmost without fail assign the devil to a very minor roll, and rightly so, because we take ourselves out of the equation and put Christ at the center. The opposite happens in the above mentioned denoms. This gives him power to feed on their sellf-centered concerns and then uses the gifts against them as in the abuses of discernment and gifts of knowledge--------all the gifts. It makes them believe they are more important than they really are. We are fallen, sinfull man and not god prospects.

Satan also fuels their paranoia on keeping the letter of the law. If they don't keep the law to a tee then they have unfounded guilt trips and satan uses this to make them feel inadequate and less of a Christian. Satan is devious and works covertly and not overtly like people think. He's not stupid.

Again, corect. We are not under Law, but under Grace. If we continue to try and follow the Law to a "T", then Christ died in vain, because we are completely forfetting what He did.

While we are not "god prospects" we do have a Heavenly heirship, which gives US authority OVER the devil.

Sure, the devil is here to "steal, kill, and destroy" but we have Christ's authority over that, and so long as our motives and intent are righteous before God, we won't succumb to the devils deception.

I've even noticed this concern among their own members as stated in their forums so I know they realize somthing is amiss.

You are right. It is an ongoing problem.
Christianity is being shaken at it's core, because people don't know what to believe anymore.
Disillusioned and dissatisfied "christian's" don't find what they want in God, (a free hand out, basically, with no strings attached), so in turn, they abuse what Christianity is all about, and give it a warped image in the process.
That's just my view anyways...which compltely detracked from the subject!

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Christianity is being shaken at it's core, because people don't know what to believe anymore.
Disillusioned and dissatisfied "christian's" don't find what they want in God, (a free hand out, basically, with no strings attached), so in turn, they abuse what Christianity is all about, and give it a warped image in the process.

Well GOOD NEWS!!. We have a free hand out with no strings attached.

Jesus died for us and forgave us our sins and it was free with no good works, or commitment on our own, because we were sinfull and coundn't accept him on our own. He did it and we didn't. We just happen to hear his word and it worked on our souls and we confessed our sins and that we were helpless without him. We were captured by the Spirit and now we are HIS.....cool HUH?!

 

[LilLamb219]

Well GOOD NEWS!!. We have a free hand out with no strings attached.

Exactly! "WE" don't have to do anything to receive it either. It's given to us like when rain falls on our heads; we receive. We don't have to ask for it, we don't have to decide for it, we don't have to ask Jesus into our hearts to get it, or surrender ourselves to get it, etc... Everything that needs to be done, is done by God 100%.

 

[LutherNut]

Exactly! "WE" don't have to do anything to receive it either. It's given to us like when rain falls on our heads; we receive. We don't have to ask for it, we don't have to decide for it, we don't have to ask Jesus into our hearts to get it, or surrender ourselves to get it, etc... Everything that needs to be done, is done by God 100%.

In fact, it has already been given... to every human being. There are some who don't know they have it, though. Conversion then is not the 'receiving" of the gift, but rather a realization that we already have it.

We can then do two things, reject it (an action on our part) or say thank you (in reponse to God's action for us).

 

[DaRev]

In fact, it has already been given... to every human being. There are some who don't know they have it, though. Conversion then is not the 'receiving" of the gift, but rather a realization that we already have it.

We can then do two things, reject it (an action on our part) or say thank you (in reponse to God's action for us).