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You had said this:
Quote:
The scriptures do not teach that a person does not understand what they are saying
When actually they do.
As for Acts 2 and glossa verses dialektos . . . the point is that it can be proven that they spoke ecstatic tongues while the hearers heard in their own dialects. We can look at this if you would like.
Yes it does . . .What I was trying to get across is that the person has a message they are to speak, but do not understand the language that comes out of their mouth. Their mind/understanding is not able to be communicated (if the tongue is not interpreted).
I suppose the question is, was a person permitted to interpret their own tongue speaking.
Refrus
1 Cor 14:5
greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
NASU
Yep.What do you mean - ecstatic tongues? Are you saying the Apostles spoke in a non-human language but were heard in human language? If so give some support for this.
Refrus
The case is much stronger than just this . . . but this is the basic arguement for demonstrating that there is more than meets the eye than just a face value reading of the English.Yep.
The Greek is pretty clear . . . each individual heard the disciples AS A GROUP speaking their own language . . . while at the same time the one next to him heard THE SAME GROUP speaking in their own language.
Like a Chinese man, a Russian, and a Greek walk into a room with a group speaking in tongues . . . the Chinese man hears the WHOLE group speaking Chinese . . . the Russian hears them in Russian . . . and the Greek in Greek . . . AT THE SAME TIME.
This was the miracle of Pentecost . . . for otherwise it was just a bunch o' guys speaking foreign languages . . . and how are strangers to know that they didn't know the language? The speaking of foreign languages in and of themselves can hardly be awe inspiring.
Yes it does . . .
Quote:
1 Cor 14:5
greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
NASU
Paul says that one can interpret his own tongue.
This isn't the point of the thread.Name one time when someone was baptized in the holy spirit that they did not speak in tongues.
Perhaps . . . but the thought flow seems pretty evident that he is interpreting his own tongue . . .Hmm, does it actually say that he can interpret his own tongue, or is it saying the one who has the gift of prohesy is superior to the one who speaks a tongue unless the tongue speaker also has the gift of interpretation (not necessarily his own tongue)? "Own tongue" is not what the passage says.
Just a thought,
RefrusI
Uhh . . . I do speak in tongues . . . have for years now.Why not let the Scriptures speak for themselves, and then let those who speak in tongues share with those who do not speak in tongues what the gift of tongues means Scripturally?
When those who do not speak in tongues try to explain to those who do speak in tongues what tongues are all about, I have found they "generally" do not have a correct Scriptural understanding of how the continuing gift of tongues is applicable - both in the church and in the personal life of the Spirit-filled Christian.
Blessings
I have seen both: a person who gave both the message and the interpretation or where the two things were done by two different individuals.Hmm, does it actually say that he can interpret his own tongue, or is it saying the one who has the gift of prohesy is superior to the one who speaks a tongue unless the tongue speaker also has the gift of interpretation (not necessarily his own tongue)? "Own tongue" is not what the passage says.
Just a thought,
RefrusI
Truly
My statement about the perusal of the text presumes faith (my application was for the believer) . . . so the same is not true for an atheist . . . one does not always just read the Scriptures and suddenly come to faith.
As for the canonization of the NT and the 300 approx. years inbetween . . . there is ample evidence that what we have as the NT today was more or less the already in circulation around 100 AD . . . assuming John wrote Rev. around 90 AD . . . the case for a faltering church without the NT becomes weak. What happened at the ratification of the NT was an affirmation of what the Church was already using . . . in lieu of many psuedopigrapha that were popping up (like what the Da Vinci Code is based off of).
I do not doubt that God can and does still speak through people. I wouldn't want to limit God in this. However, any pronounce which is from God will not contradict something that He has said as He does not change. This is how an individual can separate something from God from something from man.As for the prophetic announcement . . . I am Charismatic/Pentecostal/Reformed (weird huh?) . . . as such I believe that the gift of prophecy is still active . . . as such . . . a true prophetic announcement from God . . . is God's word. One cannot logically subject one "word" of God to another if they are both truly from God.
The difference between the Scriptures and the prophetic is one of fallibility.
The orthodox understanding of the Scriptures is that they are the ONLY
1. Inspired
2. Infallible
3. Authoritative
Word of God . . . Scripture alone holds this triune position . . .
however, a prophetic word only holds 2 of the 3. If it is a true word from the Lord . . . it is inspired . . . and authoritative . . . but not infallible. This is the picture of prophecy that Paul presents . . . for prophecy, tongues, words of wisdom and knowledge etc. are to be JUDGED. This implies the humanistic element to the prophetic in the NT . . . so while it may not be fallacy (IOW in error) it maintains the potential to be fallible.
Scripture serves as the "cornerstone" if you will . . . it contains the most accurate account of Christ, who is the perfect revelation of God. As such, any subsequent revelation of prophetic nature will conform to what God has already revealed . . . for He will not contradict Himself (hence Paul saying that any prophetic announcement that calls Christ accursed is false).
does this make sense?
SweetI think that we agree, but I would add here:
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17
If one reads the Bible with no willingness to admit that it might also be the Word of God, then to that reader it is NOT the Word of God, but only a book of paper and ink.
I agree that the Church never became weak. What was weak were some offshoots of the Church which called themselves the Church but disagreed with the Church. Without knowing all of the history, I believe that this happened (the offshooting or going off on tangents) because that is the nature of carnal man and it is certainly suggested by some of Pauls's epistles. Deciding which groups or individuals were part of the offshoot and which ones were of the Church raises teh same questions that separate people into denominations today.
I do not doubt that God can and does still speak through people. I wouldn't want to limit God in this. However, any pronounce which is from God will not contradict something that He has said as He does not change. This is how an individual can separate something from God from something from man.
If it really is from God it is not fallible. The fallible part you include would cover what I said above about the possibility that the 'words' do not come from God at all, but from man.
We agree. It does make sense.
The idea that the languages spoken on the day of Pentecost by the Apostles were not human languages has been argued, because of the use of the different terms "glossa" and "dialektos".
Originally Posted by RefrusRevlis
What do you mean - ecstatic tongues? Are you saying the Apostles spoke in a non-human language but were heard in human language? If so give some support for this.
Refrus
Yep.
The Greek is pretty clear . . . each individual heard the disciples AS A GROUP speaking their own language . . . while at the same time the one next to him heard THE SAME GROUP speaking in their own language.
Like a Chinese man, a Russian, and a Greek walk into a room with a group speaking in tongues . . . the Chinese man hears the WHOLE group speaking Chinese . . . the Russian hears them in Russian . . . and the Greek in Greek . . . AT THE SAME TIME.
This was the miracle of Pentecost . . . for otherwise it was just a bunch o' guys speaking foreign languages . . . and how are strangers to know that they didn't know the language? The speaking of foreign languages in and of themselves can hardly be awe inspiring.
"for otherwise it was just a bunch o' guys speaking foreign languages . . The speaking of foreign languages in and of themselves can hardly be awe inspiring."
" and how are strangers to know that they didn't know the language?"
The Greek is pretty clear . . . each individual heard the disciples AS A GROUP speaking their own language . . . while at the same time the one next to him heard THE SAME GROUP speaking in their own language.
Like a Chinese man, a Russian, and a Greek walk into a room with a group speaking in tongues . . . the Chinese man hears the WHOLE group speaking Chinese . . . the Russian hears them in Russian . . . and the Greek in Greek . . . AT THE SAME TIME.
I guess we need to remove I Cor 13:1 from our Bibles,A study of the passage is really important:
In all this, the idea of a special speech language apart from actual real human languages is not supported, it has to be forcibly be read into the text.
Neither Acts 2 or 1 Corinthians 14 support the idea of tongues being a non-human language.
I guess we need to remove I Cor 13:1 from our Bibles,
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have love, I have not become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, slave or freeand we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.
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