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Agreed . . .
but this wasn't the issue . . . your post:
was.
Unintelligible would be the descriptive term to deliniate the ontology of tongues . . . hence Paul saying that his mind doesn't understand. Even if God understands . . . unintelligible still accurately relates tongues . . . for that is how Paul descibes it.
This really has nothing to do with my point about linguistic usage . . . which is not the relation of perception of events but the usage of words . . . within which vaugeness is much less then redacting an event and determinig what are facts and what are interpolations.
Regardless . . . we see the scriptures as inspired . . . so we have the communication that God wants us to have . . . and as far as Luke as a historian goes . . . time and again he has been proven right and accurate.
Paul says no one understands . . . that means NO ONE. It is all encompassing.Unintelligible? I would say it depends on whether there is someone listening that understands the tongue language, or whether there is someone who gives the interpretation, or finally whether we are given the interpretation as we pray in our pray language.
Agreed.Paul described it as unintelligible and so it was to the natural mind and ears of man, but not to God to whom it should be addressed in such case. When it is addressed to man, then there should be an interpretation.
God has chosen to reveal Himself through Christ and through man (through the Scriptures) as such He has chosen His mode of revelation.You are saying, in effect, that linguistics uses the scientific method. Yes, it does, but science like history cannot alone prove or disprove the existence of God and the things of God.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" Isa 55:8-9
Man's logic and man's science and man's mathematics and man's linguistics cannot be used to discern God's Truth. You want to use one or all of these to disprove God's ability to create a language that He can understand which fails to meet the basic requirements for a human language. It cannot be done. Any steps of proof which you pursue in such a line will place on God the limitations God has placed on man.
God has chosen to reveal Himself through Christ and through man (through the Scriptures) as such He has chosen His mode of revelation.
He has communicated using human words in the Scriptures . . . as such Greek is a fairly precise language. In the case of Acts 2 the Greek is VERY clear as to what happened . . . this is not the case of one using a "man-made" device to interpret the supernatural revelation of God. It IS a case of using the mode of communication that GOD Himself has chosen to use in communication.
Better?
Acts 8: 14-17Every new believer in the New Testament did receive the baptism of the Holy spirit and they all did speak in tongues...every instance recorded.
Originally Posted by John 10:10
Actually tongues are,
"we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God." (Acts 2:11),
and,
"For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries" (1 Cor 14:2).
Let's be guided by the truth of Scripture, instead of our own opinions.
Acts 8: 14-17
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Here is one example of the people of Samaria receiving the holy ghost and none spoke in tongues. If they did, the scripture doesn't mention it.[/FONT]
The Acts quote shows the languages were human languages, but unlearned by the one speaking.
In 1 Corinthians 14:2 the verse talks about one person speaking an unknown language - people cannot understand him, because it is an unknown (to the person speaking and the people present) language. There is no concept of ecstatic speech, it is read into the text.
The scriptures do not teach that a person does not understand what they are saying. 1 Corinthians 14:14 is often used to show that the speaker does not know the meaning of what they are saying
 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unproductive (NRSV)
The question is "unproductive for whom?" -The answer is for the listener. I might have thoughts I want to convey to someone who does not speak English, but my thoughts they would not understand, because of the language barrier.
Verse 16 show the context for verse 14. The understanding is on the part of the one hearing, not the speaker.
16 Otherwise, if you say a blessing with the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say the Amen to your thanksgiving, since the outsider does not know what you are saying?
Refrus
Sorry brother . . . it says MY mind (not if I pray other's minds are unproductive). The speaker has no idea what is being said . . . otherwise whay should he pray for an interpretation if he already knows? Plus . . . as already mentioned . . . Paul says NO ONE understands . . . this includes the speaker.The Acts quote shows the languages were human languages, but unlearned by the one speaking.
In 1 Corinthians 14:2 the verse talks about one person speaking an unknown language - people cannot understand him, because it is an unknown (to the person speaking and the people present) language. There is no concept of ecstatic speech, it is read into the text.
The scriptures do not teach that a person does not understand what they are saying. 1 Corinthians 14:14 is often used to show that the speaker does not know the meaning of what they are saying
 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unproductivehttp://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1 (NRSV)
The question is "unproductive for whom?" -The answer is for the listener. I might have thoughts I want to convey to someone who does not speak English, but my thoughts they would not understand, because of the language barrier.
http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1
Verse 16 show the context for verse 14. The understanding is on the part of the one hearing, not the speaker.
16 Otherwise, if you say a blessing with the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say the Amen to your thanksgiving, since the outsider does not know what you are saying?
Refrushttp://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=35551135#_ftn1
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=35551135#_ftnref1
Yes indeed . . . yet most scholars agree that they spoke in tongues due to some manifestation causing Simon to want to purchase the ability to baptize one in the Spirit. Linguistically and contextually tongues makes the most sense.Acts 8: 14-17
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Here is one example of the people of Samaria receiving the holy ghost and none spoke in tongues. If they did, the scripture doesn't mention it.
[/FONT]
I believe that the Scriptures are a FORM of the word of God . . . and I believe that they are the most trustworthy form.I suppose that you believe the written Bible is the Word of God to each of us. I believe that the Word of God is that which He spoke and that which He writes on men's hearts.
Yes, He inspired men to write the book, but without a similar inspiration or leading of His Spirit, we still will not understand what He is saying. The written Bible itself, in any language, version, translation, copy etc. might even be considered an 'unknown tongue' in the sense that not just any reader will understand what God intended.
If we are hearing the Bible preached or taught we must have been given 'ears to hear' by God.
If we are reading or studying the book, we must have been given 'eyes to see' by God.
Without those, it will all be received as an indecipherable parable or an unknown tongue.
We do not need to understand the original Greek to understand the Bible, we need to be taught by the Holy Ghost.
Huh? How about some interaction?
Sorry brother . . . it says MY mind (not if I pray other's minds are unproductive). The speaker has no idea what is being said
. . . otherwise whay should he pray for an interpretation if he already knows?
In Acts 2 . . . what was heard was not the same as what was spoken . . . glossa verses dialektos.
You had said this:One reason my mind could be unproductive is because it does not assist anyone else. The tongue (unless interpreted) is not understood - in the context of the worship service. If I am the one speaking the tongue it is me who is being unproductive, not the audience.
Anyhow, a person who does not know the language they are speaking in fits the idea of 14:14. If I suddenly started to speak in Mongolian, my mind would be unproductive - I would not understand the words I was saying, nor would those around me.
It does not prove a "prayer language".
The interpretation was for the benefit of the others present. The person speaking without the aid of the interpreter was not edifying the church - the message was not getting through. A person with the dual gift of tongues and interpretation was more useful to the church. He could interpret other tongue speakers.
This is because in Acts 2, the gift of tongues was being used for its intended purpose - to communicate in a different dialect/language. The speaker spoke a glossa (he didn't know the language), but the recipient heard his/her dialektos. I don't get your point here.
Refrus
The scriptures do not teach that a person does not understand what they are saying
I believe that the Scriptures are a FORM of the word of God . . . and I believe that they are the most trustworthy form.
I also believe that a prophetic announcement is a word from God . . . although not to the same standard (I can explain if you so desire).
But this still doesn't change the facts about the Greek . . . true that the Spirit who penned the words is indespensible in the process of faith and understanding the Scriptures . . . but the way that He moves in enlightenment is varied. For one, a simple perusal of the text is all that one needs and the Spirit has accomplished His will . . . but for another the will of the Spirit drives him/her deeper into the text and as close to the original conveyance as possible (like me) due to the standard that God has called one to.
TrulyThe written scripture is certainly a guide and very 'trustworthy', and perhaps also as you say a 'form of the Word of God' but with the scriptures and man's apparently flawed discernments we have today literally thousands of 'Christian' churches, assemblies, groups, etc. Is it the 'most trustworthy form'? If that is the case then what did sincere believers do after John Beloved was gone but before the New Testament was written and distributed?
I have idea of what you mean, but would appreciate your explanation of your declaration: 'I also believe that a prophetic announcement is a word from God'.
Many of the initiating leaders of many existing Christian denominations today probably started as Martin Luther did, not wanting to start a new church, but rather to bring the current one closer to God. Unfortunately, not all of Luther's followers and not all of the followers of other sincere leaders of church groups had the same purpose as the leaders themselves. The difficulty with even a group established on a correct premise is that people like to find a nice comfortable place to sit with all of the answers already in place and carefully organized so they have immediate access.
This type of careful organization may work well for most business groups, but not with God's people. We can never sit comfortably back with a box of index cards with all of the answers or even a computer file with all of the answers. All of the answers are in His Word, Yes even in His written Word for us. But..there is not index that has all of the answers we will ever need. The search MUST continue until...until we have reached the end of our course. No vacations and no retirement from God.
For you the answer, or at least an answer, to finding the most Truth from the Bible is in understanding the original Greek. I won't disagree that this could be helpful and for you may be the best and even the necessary way. This is, however, not within the means or ability of every person seeking God. The Truth is not limited only to those persons with means to get into the Greek texts. It is rather to 'whosoever will'.
As to always getting something from the perusal of the written scripture, I would not be so definite even about that.
Yes, I agree that reading and studying the written Bible is very important and I strive to do just that every day. Yet, I have known at least one self-proclaimed atheist who knew more scripture than many self-proclaimed Christians and was able to support his position very logically using the Bible. A person can use the scripture to proof almost anything that he chooses, even that God does not exist.
[Of course, a servant of God who is seeking the Truth continually will have no trouble from such an educated atheist, but how diligent are many Christians in their pursuit of Truth?]
The key for me is in the need to bring the Bible to Life with God's help. You have apparently found a way to do that through your study of Greek, and that is fine for you. I would never presume to say that God would not use that. But neither would I presume to say that without Greek a person is limited.
The most important thing I see is to start at the bottom every time I start to talk to God or to study His Word or to do anything with regard to God. If I head for the pulpit instead of the altar at each approach to Him, I will probably get into more trouble than I am able to handle.
"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11
Actually, I find very little on which we really disagree.
Give God all of the glory always!
I find very little on which we really disagree
I would also add that, true that one not need know Greek . . . but one also should not preclude the ministry of the teacher in the Body . . . hence teachers incurring a stricter judgement.The written scripture is certainly a guide and very 'trustworthy', and perhaps also as you say a 'form of the Word of God' but with the scriptures and man's apparently flawed discernments we have today literally thousands of 'Christian' churches, assemblies, groups, etc. Is it the 'most trustworthy form'? If that is the case then what did sincere believers do after John Beloved was gone but before the New Testament was written and distributed?
I have idea of what you mean, but would appreciate your explanation of your declaration: 'I also believe that a prophetic announcement is a word from God'.
Many of the initiating leaders of many existing Christian denominations today probably started as Martin Luther did, not wanting to start a new church, but rather to bring the current one closer to God. Unfortunately, not all of Luther's followers and not all of the followers of other sincere leaders of church groups had the same purpose as the leaders themselves. The difficulty with even a group established on a correct premise is that people like to find a nice comfortable place to sit with all of the answers already in place and carefully organized so they have immediate access.
This type of careful organization may work well for most business groups, but not with God's people. We can never sit comfortably back with a box of index cards with all of the answers or even a computer file with all of the answers. All of the answers are in His Word, Yes even in His written Word for us. But..there is not index that has all of the answers we will ever need. The search MUST continue until...until we have reached the end of our course. No vacations and no retirement from God.
For you the answer, or at least an answer, to finding the most Truth from the Bible is in understanding the original Greek. I won't disagree that this could be helpful and for you may be the best and even the necessary way. This is, however, not within the means or ability of every person seeking God. The Truth is not limited only to those persons with means to get into the Greek texts. It is rather to 'whosoever will'.
As to always getting something from the perusal of the written scripture, I would not be so definite even about that.
Yes, I agree that reading and studying the written Bible is very important and I strive to do just that every day. Yet, I have known at least one self-proclaimed atheist who knew more scripture than many self-proclaimed Christians and was able to support his position very logically using the Bible. A person can use the scripture to proof almost anything that he chooses, even that God does not exist.
[Of course, a servant of God who is seeking the Truth continually will have no trouble from such an educated atheist, but how diligent are many Christians in their pursuit of Truth?]
The key for me is in the need to bring the Bible to Life with God's help. You have apparently found a way to do that through your study of Greek, and that is fine for you. I would never presume to say that God would not use that. But neither would I presume to say that without Greek a person is limited.
The most important thing I see is to start at the bottom every time I start to talk to God or to study His Word or to do anything with regard to God. If I head for the pulpit instead of the altar at each approach to Him, I will probably get into more trouble than I am able to handle.
"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11
Actually, I find very little on which we really disagree.
Give God all of the glory always!
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