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your #3 of seven...
"In v13 it says that faith hope and love would remain after the 3 gifts had ceased."
No it doesn't. It just says faith hope and agape-love are abiding now - and that agape-love is the greatest - no mention of gifts ceasing:
1Co 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
prosopon pros prosopon
face to face
one face to another face
not rocket science to figure out whose face
So is Paul“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8)
Knowledge of the scriptures won't cease at the 2nd coming (Ps 119:89, Matt 24:35, Is 40:8). The knowledge Paul is referring to is the spiritual gift of 'words of knowledge' (1 Cor 12:8), a revelatory gift. There is no other kind of knowledge listed as a spiritual gift.
That's because Paul was writing at a time when those gifts were still active in the church.
Paul does not say he will see God or anyone else "face to face". Seeing 'face to face' is the contrasting antithesis in the analogy of seeing dimly in a poor mirror. It is not referring to seeing anyone in particular.
But again I asked the other individual this question...and i'll ask you it...why would God randomly change his covenant like that? We are told in the Grace period...we have access to the HOly SPirit on the inside....and Paul elebarotes how this Spirit brings gifts....Yes, that is what it would be like when we have the scriptures compared to piecemeal prophecies. It is still analogy.
Of the de nuni construction:
νυνί
Transliteration
nyni
Pronunciation
nü-nē' (Key)
The KJV translates Strong's G3570 in the following manner: now (21x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
now, at this very moment
"You said "At the time of Paul's writing, when church had to rely on piecemeal prophecies for guidance in the faith in the absence of the NT, it was like seeing dimly in a poor mirror (mirrors were poor quality in those days)"
Right, they were polished steel and none too good.
To the Corinthians, Paul seemed to be zeroing in on misuse of Tongues, Prophecies and Word of Knowledge -- everybody had one, all at the same time causing confusion. The fact that the "other gifts" besides those three would pass away also was not the main point in Corinthians.
In your 5th part of the 7, you say
"At the time of Paul's writing the early church needed prophecy and words of knowledge to guide them in the faith in the absence of a New Testament."
They had eye-witnesses of Christ and those who had been with Jesus since His ministry began. Your statement makes it look like "Oh, the poor early church without a New Testament - how did they ever get by?"
Only tongues was a problem in Corinth. Prophecy was being used correctly - to edify the church. So that theory doesn't hold.
You say for your point 6:
"in Eph 2:20 which says that apostles and prophets were only for the foundation of the church."
2:20 says nothing of the kind!!
Eph 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
In the analogy of a building, apostles and prophets are a foundation, atop chief cornerstone of Christ, and the "ye" is the Ephesian Christians themselves -- there is not the slightest whiff of a saying that apostles and prophets are LIMITED TO A CERTAIN TIME-FRAME!
This building anology is concerned with position in the structure, not "the church going forth through time", where does all this eisogesis come from?
I just don't get you, Swordsman -- NOW does not really mean NOW -- face to face doesn't really mean face to face...
Comment: Unless you want to argue we are perfect now....this is clearly referring to the perfect state we will achieve.
Don't claim for yourself what was written to what is arguably the most charismatic church known to man. A church where Paul said every one of them 'could' speak in tongues. You want to call it hyperbole....of course you would.All believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13 says so.
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."If you are not baptized in the Spirit you are not part of the body of Christ.
The Bible(The Word of God) is perfect, for it comes from The Perfect. And when The Perfect comes.......Paul said they would cease when the perfect came. Do you think the bible is perfect?
But again I asked the other individual this question...and i'll ask you it...why would God randomly change his covenant like that? We are told in the Grace period...we have access to the HOly SPirit on the inside....and Paul elebarotes how this Spirit brings gifts....
There was an indication that JESUS would come....and an indication that the outpouring of the holy SPirit would come in prophecy in the OT....but there is no prophecy for then another change happening...when the Gifts would cease here on Earth. I just don't see how one could go with that interpretation.
Not to mention we see unexplainable today...i knew someone who couldn't walk..went to a church...got prayer....and walked. I've seen too much to suggest to the contrary that this stuff is dead.
IF we see stuff...we can't deny it.
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