Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

And while I am in Ephesians, and near the point about baptism, I will throw this out --

Eph 4:3
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism

oh no! Only ONE BAPTISM?
but...
but...

jlb sees 3 and Steve and I see two..

??

Saint Steven · Jul 31, 2018

This might help to clarify things.

Acts 8:14-16
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

So they were fresh wineskins ready to be filled with new wine!
I like that analogy!!

So those Samaria new believers had water first, then got the ghost later, some new believers got the ghost first, like at Cornelius' house -- then Peter said "who can withhold water -- seeing as how the Holy Spirit fell on them like it did at the first?"

dqhall · Jul 31, 2018

Dave L said:
Paul says those who speak in tongues speak to God and those with the gift of interpretation only.

Paul spoke in tongues more than all of them.
1 Cor. 14-18 (ASV) I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

He spoke at least Aramaic and Greek. Having studied in Jerusalem under Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin (Acts 22:3), Paul may have learned Hebrew. Having traveled the Roman world, Paul may have learned Latin.

When Paul was arrested as described in Acts 21, He spoke to the military commander in Greek. This is not some unknown tongue only the person speaking and God could understand.
Acts 21:37 As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he asked the commanding officer, "May I speak to you?" He said, "Do you know Greek? 38 Aren't you then the Egyptian, who before these days stirred up to sedition and led out into the wilderness the four thousand men of the Assassins?" 39 But Paul said, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city. I beg you, allow me to speak to the people."

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

We are going to wind up with a TRINITY of Baptisms, like JLB says there is one just done by sealing of the Lord when a person believes - then a water one done by the Church - a Holy Ghost one done by Jesus; a three-in-one baptism.

But not everyone speaks in tongues, because Paul asked rhetorically "Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?"

swordsman1 · Jul 31, 2018

All believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13 says so.

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

If you are not baptized in the Spirit you are not part of the body of Christ.

Saint Steven · Jul 31, 2018

Anto9us said:
So they were fresh wineskins ready to be filled with new wine!
I like that analogy!!

So those Samaria new believers had water first, then got the ghost later, some new believers got the ghost first, like at Cornelius' house -- then Peter said "who can withhold water -- seeing as how the Holy Spirit fell on them like it did at the first?"

You got it. And then there were the disciples in Ephesus that Paul encountered.
The Apostle had to ask them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed.
I'm guessing they weren't manifesting any gifts. Here's what happened.

Acts 19:1-6
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples
2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Saint Steven · Jul 31, 2018

Anto9us said:
We are going to wind up with a TRINITY of Baptisms, like JLB says there is one just done by sealing of the Lord when a person believes - then a water one done by the Church - a Holy Ghost one done by Jesus; a three-in-one baptism.

But not everyone speaks in tongues, because Paul asked rhetorically "Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?"

It depends on which type of tongues. There are at least five kinds of tongues.
I think the verse you mentioned is referring to the corporate worship ministry of tongues, where interpretation is needed. (preferred) Number 3 below.

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

Saint Steven · Jul 31, 2018

Stringfellow_Hawke said:
Just curious, not trying to start a debate:

This past weekend I attended a service with my best friend who is in a church that still believes in tongues, gifts, etc.
I heard his pastor praying in tongues. Is he just jibbering? Could he be speaking another language that we didn't know he knew? Finally, and no offense or disrespect intended, but could you possibly have this wrong?

This might help you to understand what you saw going on in your friend's church.

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

I've done 1-4

Saint Steven · Jul 31, 2018

Anto9us said:
I've done 1-4

I haven't done 3 or 5. But I am available. lol

Silly Uncle Wayne · Jul 31, 2018

Dave L said:
Many think the Apostles spoke supernaturally in human languages at Pentecost. And people from different nations naturally understood what they said in their own tongue. But Paul says when a person speaks in tongues, they speak to God and not to men (1 Corinthians 14:2). So on Pentecost, the Apostles spoke to God in a heavenly tongue and devout Jews from every nation overheard them in their own native tongue. So they must have received the gift of interpreting too.

Not necessarily. When I pray I am speaking to God and not to men. That doesn't mean that men cannot understand me.

Read Acts again and the implication is that the people praying were speaking in the languages of the listeners, not that the listeners were necessarily enabled to hear the the language of the speakers. The Holy Spirit enabled the believers to speak in the languages of the listeners.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jul 31, 2018

Dave L said:
“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8)

1. The letter as a whole was written to Corinthians....it wasn't sent in sub sections or parts... as a result either paul was telling them the gifts are for all men...or they weren't for all men...cause again this was all sent at the same time. If your verse really meant what you claim it means...it would contradict this letter becuase then (if you were right) Paul argued for two different things...in the same letter.

2. you're taking this way out of context....

All Paul is saying is Love is more important then having any sort of gift... that's all this is saying... Charity in the greek here is agape LOVE ....that is the LOve of God...he's saying if one has gifts and not that...it means nothing... that's the focus...you're right about one thing though...your verse indicates gifts will go away...but that's a common sense thing and i'll explain why.
1 Corinthians 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (AGAPE LOVE), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (AGAPE LOVE) , I am nothing.

he continues to describe this love below

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity (AGAPE LOVE) suffereth long, and is kind; charity (agape love) envieth not; charity (agape love) vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

ANd then we have this...

8 Charity (AGAPE LOVE) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1. To say knowledge has vanished would be ludicrous....we can read the bible and can get knowledge and God can give certain people that gift...where they just know the mysteries of the word...and so forth. There are great men with this gift today.

2. Paul says it will cease....he never says it did cease.....

But he does say when tounqgues and prophecies and all this will cease....

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Comment: Paul is referring to a future state he will be in in the after life when he sees God face to face (look at the greek for face to face). Logically when we are in the after life...why would we need prophecy... to speak a word from God if he's right there? WHy tounques with interpretation to speak a word from God if God is right there?

This is what I mean by common sense....of course gifts will cease eventually...they aren't eternal...that's all Paul is saying...while AGAPE LOVE IS eternal...and God is love.... so value that more.

Lastly though why would God suddenly change his covenant....and you would need scripture to suggest he did....we had law.....then that transition period of law/Grace during JESUS time......now we have Grace...wehre one can have the HOly Spirit on the inside...and gifts with it.

Is there another covenant i'm not aware of? of course not.

JLB777 · Jul 31, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Jesus is the Holy Spirit baptizer. The church does water baptism.

Yes sir.

The third is the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the body of Christ.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

Baptized into Moses = Baptized into Christ by the Spirit.

In the sea = Water Baptism

In the cloud = Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

JLB

swordsman1 · Jul 31, 2018

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
1. To say knowledge has vanished would be ludicrous....we can read the bible and can get knowledge and God can give certain people that gift...where they just know the mysteries of the word...and so forth. There are great men with this gift today.

Knowledge of the scriptures won't cease at the 2nd coming (Ps 119:89, Matt 24:35, Is 40:8). The knowledge Paul is referring to is the spiritual gift of 'words of knowledge' (1 Cor 12:8), a revelatory gift. There is no other kind of knowledge listed as a spiritual gift.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
2. Paul says it will cease....he never says it did cease.....

That's because Paul was writing at a time when those gifts were still active in the church.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
Comment: Paul is referring to a future state he will be in in the after life when he sees God face to face (look at the greek for face to face).

Paul does not say he will see God or anyone else "face to face". Seeing 'face to face' is the contrasting antithesis in the analogy of seeing dimly in a poor mirror. It is not referring to seeing anyone in particular.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

face to face
prosopon pros prosopon

it has nothing to do with seeing in a BETTER MIRROR than before when it was through a glass darkly

it is seeing God face to face, just as JESUS-GOAT said

swordsman1 · Jul 31, 2018

Anto9us said:
face to face
prosopon pros prosopon

it has nothing to do with seeing in a BETTER MIRROR than before when it was through a glass darkly

it is seeing God face to face, just as JESUS-GOAT said

That's not what the verse says.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

your #3 of seven...

"In v13 it says that faith hope and love would remain after the 3 gifts had ceased."

No it doesn't. It just says faith hope and agape-love are abiding now - and that agape-love is the greatest - no mention of gifts ceasing:

1Co 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

prosopon pros prosopon

face to face

one face to another face

not rocket science to figure out whose face

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2018

As part of your #4 of the 7, you mention 'other gifts' not ceasing as the 3 specifically mentioned are said to have a ceasing point

"If Paul was referring to the 2nd coming, then it wouldn't just be prophecy, words of knowledge, and tongues that will cease. All the spiritual gifts will cease. In the eternal state there will be no need for healers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, giving, faith, discernment of spirits, etc. Yet Paul makes no mention of those ceasing. 'Face to face' in v12 is not referring to seeing Christ as continuationists suppose. There is no mention of Christ in this passage. 'Face to face' is referring to the analogy of a mirror."

It's the eternal state brought about by the second coming.

Mirrors in ancient world were steel, not glass, so the KJV of 'through a GLASS' would be better rendered 'in a mirror'.

"In a mirror" of NOW is contrasted with "face to face" of THEN

The phrase dia esoptron en ainigma - in KJV is 'through a glass darkly'

Now we see an obscure thing in a mirror, then we will see face to face

The KJV translates Strong's G135 in the following manner:darkly (with G1722) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

an obscure saying, enigma, riddle
an obscure thing

Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

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