Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

Saint Steven · Aug 3, 2018

Are we still in the last days?

Acts 2:14-18
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd:
“Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you;
listen carefully to what I say.
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Albion · Aug 3, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Defined as "what you now see and hear."

No, sir! The verse merely says that the Holy Ghost HAS poured out, etc.

You are trying to make that be the promise itself, but the verse doesn't say that. It clearly identifies the Holy Ghost as that which believers will receive.

None of us disputes that idea that the believer receives the Holy Ghost.

Saint Steven · Aug 3, 2018

Albion said:
No, sir! The verse merely says that the Holy Ghost HAS poured out, etc.

You are trying to make that be the promise itself, but the verse doesn't say that. It clearly identifies the Holy Ghost as that which believers will receive.

None of us disputes that idea that the believer receives the Holy Ghost.

There is actually nothing in the whole chapter about the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The whole chapter is about supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
The verse (Acts 2:39) needs to be understood in the context of the entire chapter.

- There was an outpouring with supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
(Jesus had predicted this in Acts chapter one calling it the baptism with the Holy Spirit)
- Those present wanted an explanation for what was happening.
- Peter informs them of what was spoken by the Prophet Joel. (In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.) Supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
- Peter concludes his sermon saying: "Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear." (Acts 2:33) Supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
- With all this in mind Peter says:

Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Paul. · Aug 3, 2018

Dave L said:
Whoever believes in Christ can know for certain Christ died for them. They could not believe had he not.

Yes, people believe that Christ died for them but this does not make them born again. Some people believe that Christ died but did not rise again. Some people believe in Christ but fail to believe the most import point, that He was God incarnate.

I am trying to clarify what you believe about salvation before discussing your idea that King David and everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11 were saved. How did King David become born again?

Saint Steven · Aug 3, 2018

Albion said:
No, sir! The verse merely says that the Holy Ghost HAS poured out, etc.

You are trying to make that be the promise itself, but the verse doesn't say that. It clearly identifies the Holy Ghost as that which believers will receive.

None of us disputes that idea that the believer receives the Holy Ghost.

Are you claiming that those that Peter ordered to be baptized did not experience supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit? If so, how would you prove it?

Major1 · Aug 3, 2018

Dave L said:
According to scripture, God enabled believers to speak to him in a heavenly language. A language unknown except by him and those to whom he gave a gift for interpreting it (1 Corinthians 14:27–28).

Many think the Apostles spoke supernaturally in human languages at Pentecost. And people from different nations naturally understood what they said in their own tongue. But Paul says when a person speaks in tongues, they speak to God and not to men (1 Corinthians 14:2). So on Pentecost, the Apostles spoke to God in a heavenly tongue and devout Jews from every nation overheard them in their own native tongue. So they must have received the gift of interpreting too.

God delivered the gift of tongues personally in the baptism of the Holy Spirit during the Jewish outpouring and about seven years later in the gentile outpouring at Cornelius’ house. But all other times he delivered the gift of tongues through the Apostles’ hands (Acts 8:18). Scripture does not mention any other means of distribution apart from these.

God placed tongues and interpretation into groups of converts in various regions through the Apostles. So each church would have God’s word spoken personally to them by individual members who received the gift. We see the laying on of hands in Jerusalem (Acts 6:6), Ephesus (Acts 19:1–7), and Samaria (Acts 8:14–17) and throughout Paul’s journeys where he gave the gifts (2 Timothy 1:6; Romans 1:11). God sent Ananias, who according to history was one of the original seventy disciples ordained by Christ, through whose hands Paul became healed and filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17).

They spoke God’s word through tongues and interpretation and through prophecy. With this they passed around the Apostle’s writings that would become the New Testament scriptures. Paul said tongues would stop when a better way, one that is perfect comes (1 Corinthians 13:8–10.)

Many think perfection happens in the new heavens and earth. But Paul qualifies this by saying whenever it comes, faith, hope and love would remain (1 Corinthians 13:13). Faith, hope and love fits well into this present world where we need all the faith, hope and love we can get. But in the world to come we’ll have all we ever hoped for and believed in. So Paul inferred tongues would stop sometime before Christ’s return on the last day, when hope and faith find fulfillment in the new world.

Paul urged believers to come behind in no gift until the coming (apocalypse or Revelation) of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:7). This is the same word John uses for the apocalypse of Jesus Christ. What we call the book of Revelation.

So this is likely what Paul saw through a glass darkly. A revelation he knew was coming but didn’t know how or when. Paul urged them to continue seeking spiritual gifts until Christ provided a revelation. We know a revelation came through John about the time speaking in tongues disappears from history.

Many gifts continue today as permanent endowments to the Church. We have miracles and healings through the prayer of faith (James 5:15). Also pastors, evangelists and teachers with the Apostles and Prophets cast in their writings (Ephesians 4:11). But God removed the apostolic signs and wonders with the death of the last Apostle. And he gave us a more sure word of prophecy than tongues and prophecy could provide (2 Peter 1:17–20).

God withdrew the Apostles, honoring them in the Book of Revelation. He wrote their names in the foundations of heavenly Jerusalem with the names of the twelve sons of Israel. This brought to a close the apostolic age and the gifts that flowed through their hands.

My dear friend, no matter how Biblical your comment is and no matter how logical it is, you will never convince the people who want to speak in "gibberish", get slain in the spirit and lay hands on the sick and experience their physical healing.

Major1 · Aug 3, 2018

Paul. said:
Yes, people believe that Christ died for them but this does not make them born again. Some people believe that Christ died but did not rise again. Some people believe in Christ but fail to believe the most import point, that He was God incarnate.

I am trying to clarify what you believe about salvation before discussing your idea that King David and everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11 were saved. How did King David become born again?

The same way everyone else was saved, Faith!.

Romans 4:3...……...
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness",

Romans 4:6-8...……..
“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

Anto9us · Aug 3, 2018

Wow - lotta posts since I went to sleep.
Thx for contributing, redleghuner.

I don't know where to start - but, no, I don't understand what someone next to me is praying in tongues -- and that is the type of tongues where it is NOT a "message to the congregation" that needs to be interpreted.

As far as who does interpreting, it is usually someone OTHER THAN the one who gave the message in tongues, but sometimes it is the one who gave the message in tongues interpreting his own tongues, I have seen it both ways in the charismatic Episcopal church that went strictly BY THE BOOK, I mean, there was never there any of the "everybody does prayer language at once, lifting hands and praying/singing in tongues." To rule that out is a bit much to me -- charismatics know the difference between a message in tongues to the congregation and 'everybody doing prayer language in praise', but like I said, the Episcopal church was determined to abstain from any appearance of evil or disorder.

As far as me bringing up the concept of blaspheming the Holy Spirit early in this thread, I submit that it was legitimate to mention it, I did not specifically accuse any individual of doing so, people need to know about it. In the same vein, when it was mentioned about "non-verbal" tongues (an oxymoron) there is need for a warning against things akin to automatic writing, which could be demonic.

I am not a big fan of Augustine, and I don't know why it's such a BIG DEAL about "who can find the real reference that those E-ville pentecostals quote" that Augustine said tongues existed in his day. but I will keep looking. So far I have found stuff about Augustine's arguments with Donatists (which went on for decades) wherein it was said that Donatists held tongues to be a part of their beliefs and Augustine was against them and it. I will keep looking for stuff about Augustine, he is unique in that he wrote a bunch of books and also later wrote RETRACTIONS, where he reversed some things he had earlier said.

Ya know, I have not witnessed any "bad stuff" or 'non-genuine tongues' like some people here have mentioned, though there was one bad experience with Word of Knowledge -- given under this "someone in the congregation has been healed of _______" which is a pretty bogus way of delivering a Word of Knowledge IMO.

A humorous incident in the Charismatic Episcopal church -- someone gave a message in Tongues, and usually only a moment went by before an interpretation was given, by someone else or by the original speaker -- but this time Time dragged on and on with no interpretation, everyone wondered.

Then coincidentally - a cell phone rang in a pew near where the speaker was - and moments later an Interpretation was given; some of us with our warped sense of humor joked that the interpretation came in by cell phone, but of course it was just a coincidence.

Albion · Aug 3, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Are you claiming that those that Peter ordered to be baptized did not experience supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit?

No, but neither is that the topic here. I've noted before that no one is arguing that there never was any gifting by the Holy Spirit of the items mentioned in Corinthians.

Major1 · Aug 3, 2018

Paul. said:
The argument here is a continuation of the either / or situation with tongues. Tongues is either human languages understood by the hearer but not the speaker as it appears in Acts 2 or tongues is a language only understood by God as shown in 1 Cor 14. I believe the Bible does not put such limits on the expression of speaking in tongues. We see tongues can be understood by the hearer but not speaker Acts 2, tongues can be angelic languages 1 Cor 13 and tongues can be only a language understood by God 1 Cor 14. If you do not believe this is possible, please explain.

Mark 16:14-16
"Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues".

Whether we like it or not the Lord Jesus Himself said those words TO THE ELEVEN. He gave them, the APOSTLES the "sign gifts" so that they would have the ability to continue His mission.

2 Cor. 12:12...……..
"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds."

That verse clearly teaches that signs and wonders followed the apostles.

Eph. 2:20 …………….
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone".

That verse clearly teaches that the apostles were necessary for the foundation of the church, and thus are no longer needed today. Combining these two scriptures leads to the argument that since signs and wonders were characteristic of apostles, and since apostles were only necessary for the foundation period of the church, signs have ceased together with the office of the apostle.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE SCRIPTURE that validates, mandates or even suggests the continuation of the "Apostolic sign gifts".

It should be understood by all who read it that Eph. 2:20 teaches the temporal nature of apostles and prophets. I would also think that it would be clear that miraculous signs were characteristic of all who were apostles.

Since NO ONE qualifies as an apostle today, simple common sense along with the Scriptures should allow us all to understand that tongues and "sign gifts" ended when the last apostle died.

We now have the written Word of God and the Gospels.

Anto9us · Aug 3, 2018

JESUS CALLING by Sarah Young and GOD CALLING by the '2 listeners' back in the 30's are both very popular devotional books - I have both of them, but there are caveats concerning them. The THOUGHTS expressed are WONDERFUL in content -- yet the message is that God/Jesus is DICTATING IN THE FIRST PERSON. I am a little uncomfortable with that, if it is said that Jesus is dictating something in the first person, I want to see it in the Bible.

Anything close to automatic writing makes me suspicious.

As far as the idea that Cessationists claim that 'the Perfect' (complete or mature if you will) represents the completion and distribution of the New Testament -- what scripture support does THAT have?

Where does it say that the completed New Testament is what is being talked about - what chapter and verse says the finished New Testament is when 'through a glass darkly' changes to 'face to face' and partial knowledge becomes full knowledge?

Corinthians does not come right out and say what many non-Cessationists believe - that face to face and full knowledge coming means the state after Christ's return, no, but neither does it in any way infer that "a completed Bible" is what is meant by that either.

So the Cessationists' claim that what is referred to is not the state after Christ's return - well, their claim about what face to face and full knowledge does mean in that passage is in no way supported by the Bible either.

We have had completed Bibles for - what - 19 centuries maybe? Do we have full knowledge yet? Don't we still see through a glass darkly compared to the time when "we shall be like Him because we will see Him as He is"?

Another humorous incident is forthcoming about THE CESSATIONIST COFFEEHOUSE back in college days, rather, a coffeehouse where the Director was a staunch cessationist.

Anto9us · Aug 3, 2018

Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

How in the world does someone get a "temporal nature" of the apostles and prophets from that verse?

Albion · Aug 3, 2018

You have a very refined and specific view of what a Cessationist is. While some people who believe that tongues ceased might also believe some or all of what you have outlined here, the definition of a Cessationist is simply a person who thinks that the tongues referred to in the New Testament did cease.

In my experience, a person who identifies himself as a Cessationist is saying this and no more.

Anto9us · Aug 3, 2018

Albion said:
You have a very refined an specific view of what a Cessationist is. While some people who believe that tongues ceased might also believe some of all of what you have outlined here, the definition of a Cessationist is simply a person who thinks that the tongues referred to in the New Testament did cease.

To whom does the YOU refer, Albion?

Albion · Aug 3, 2018

The posts are coming fast and furious now, aren't they?

I was replying to your post #491.

Dave L · Aug 3, 2018

Major1 said:
My dear friend, no matter how Biblical your comment is and no matter how logical it is, you will never convince the people who want to speak in "gibberish", get slain in the spirit and lay hands on the sick and experience their physical healing.

Even voodoo practitioners do this. Many cultures get a buzz speaking in tongues but it is not genuine biblical tongues.
http://www.dana.org/News/Speaking_in_Tongues__Glossalalia_and_Stress_Reduction/

Anto9us · Aug 3, 2018

https://charlesasullivan.com/3662/an-analysis-of-augustine-on-tongues-and-the-donatists/

A bit on Augustine vs the Donatists, who indeed did practice tongues in that day.

Dave L · Aug 3, 2018

Paul. said:
Yes, people believe that Christ died for them but this does not make them born again. Some people believe that Christ died but did not rise again. Some people believe in Christ but fail to believe the most import point, that He was God incarnate.

I am trying to clarify what you believe about salvation before discussing your idea that King David and everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11 were saved. How did King David become born again?

God imparts the new birth. We have nothing to do with it just as we had nothing to do with our physical birth.

Dave L · Aug 3, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Are we still in the last days?
What is the promise? How is it defined in Acts chapter two?

Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Earlier in the chapter we read:

Acts 2:14-18
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd:
“Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you;
listen carefully to what I say.
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Here the genitive τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (tou hagiou pneumatos) is a genitive of apposition; the gift consists of the Holy Spirit.

Biblical Studies Press. (2005). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press.

Anto9us · Aug 3, 2018

Oh, ask not for whom the bell tolls -- it tolls for me...

Perhaps the objection is that ALL Cessationists do indeed claim that THE PERFECT means the completion of the New Testament -- I know there are Cessationists who do not claim that; but going back to college days when a Coffeehouse Director shoved his Bible in my face with both hands and and said "THIS!!" (meaning the Perfect had come) -- many Cessationists do indeed claim the finished Bible is what caused Tongues to 'cease'.

Enlighten me on whatever else I may have misrepresented Cessationists as.

Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

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