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To try and explain away and hide their own lack of holiness and commitment to Christ as the cause, they introduced the teaching that the gifts ceased when the last Apostle died. Every Christian movement that has required holiness and commitment to Christ has had the supernatural gifts emerge.
That's pretty funny. And not correct either.We have zero scripture to support your claims for tongues outlasting the Apostles who administered them.
In 1 Cor 13:1-3 Paul did exaggerate some things to make a point. In verse 2 the term all is used in relation to knowledge, mysteries and faith. This does not mean that knowledge does not exist. It does not mean that mysteries do not exist. It does not mean that faith does not exist. In verse 3 giving to the poor is also coupled with all in order to exaggerate to make the point. This does not mean that giving to the poor does not exist. Verse 3 mentions allowing experiencing physical suffering even to the point of death. Physical suffering is mentioned to the greatest degree to make a point. This does not meant that physical suffering for the gospel does not exist even to the greatest degree. The exaggeration of all of these things does not mean that these things do not exist, therefore you are not justified in saying tongues of angels does not exist because there is exaggeration of things in the two verses that follow after the verse that mentioned the tongues of angels.The tongues of angels in 1 Cor 13 was Paul portraying an exaggerated scenario to make a point. He is saying even if someone could speak in tongues to the ultimate degree conceivable (speaking the language of angels), but not have love, it would be worthless. We can tell this because he does the same with 3 other gifts in the following verses - having the gift of prophesy to the ultimate degree of knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie. omniscience); having the gift of faith to the ultimate degree of moving mountains; and having the gift of giving to the ultimate degree of giving up ALL you possess to the poor and even giving up your own life. Paul is saying that even if someone had those gifts to such a superlative degree, without love, it would be to no avail.
No one actually spoke in the language of angels. The only description of tongues in scripture is in Acts 2, miraculously speaking known foreign languages.
In the verse that mentions languages of angels, languages of men is also mentioned in the same verse. If the context shows the "languages of men" is to be taken literally then the "and of angels" part of the sentence cannot be cut out as being completely different. In context, there is no change of thought.No one actually spoke in the language of angels.
Wow. We have had several posts back and forth discussing it. Perhaps we were misunderstanding each other. I thought you were defending the theory.What do you mean by "the theory of supernatural hearing"? I've never heard of that one.
I agree to a certain extent. What you are saying is one way to describe the current situation. But falls short of the whole picture. See my list at the bottom of this post for the scriptural model, if you will. We see that there was a second experience in which the Holy Spirit filled the believers. And I would agree that we can't put the Spirit in a box.My view is that every person who receives Christ receives the Spirit. The problem with many is that although they have the Spirit resident in them, they don't know how to allow the Spirit to flow out of them again, so He just stays dormant within them. So, what some may call the baptism of the Spirit may be just the Spirit who is already in them is now flowing out of them with, as Jesus said, rivers of living water.
Yes, there are some people who do say or think that way. However, none of it proves anything as far as the topic here is concerned--cessation or continuation.Today we hear testimonies of people having spontaneous experiences when the Spirit manifests in gifts. Others seek to have such an experience. It is also common for those who believe the gifts died with the Apostles to "hear from God", which is actually operating in the gift of prophesy. And even Cessationists believe God still heals when Elders pray for the sick.
And if you remembered from our former conversations, Spirit is capitalized not by translation but by interpretation. The AV 1611 had a small 's' in both cases in this verse. All the critical texts omit 'eis' which is translated "into" because of it's difficulty. Capitalization here in this verse came not as a point of better translating, but a matter of doctrinal pretext. And you can make a pretty sure bet that none of those translators spoke in tongues. A better translation/interpretation of that verse would say "all have been made to drink at one pneuma." And 'that pneuma' is the spirit of Christ which should not be capitalized, and not the Holy Spirit. When you got born again you received the holy spirit of Christ not the Holy Spirit. That the Holy Spirit is the spirit responsible for your spirit's regeneration was confirmed by my quote of John 3 which you conveniently did not deal with in my text.If you had read the Grudem excerpt I quoted you would know that idea has been refuted. The Greek word for "by" and "in" is the same word.
The book of Acts has 5 accounts of people or groups of people receiving the Holy Spirit.Grudem explains this.
Pentecost and Samaria were the only two instances in the whole of Acts where the HS was received subsequent to conversion.
Just answer the question you and Sword refuse to acknowledge. Are you a Charismatic like the church of Corinth or are you one who is 'ungifted/unlearned' in the things we talk about from experience? Why won't either of you ever just admit this one point? Your refusal to do so is very TELLING as to what you really believe I think.I experienced many years in charismatic circles. And possibly have more experience than you.
Since angels exist and they are recorded as communicating in earthly languages, speaking in heaven and praising the Lord, the Bible clearly shows that using language is something angels do. To state their communication is only with earthly languages would be an argument from silence because the Bible does not state that this is the case. Based on this and the fact that angelic language is mentioned in 1 Cor 13:1, the only conclusion I can come to is that angelic language exists.
The gifts ceased with the Apostles. You do not have the real thing. Example: Those who spoke in tongues in Acts did so spontaneously. You had to be coached and told what to do. Those who spoke knew what they said. You do not. You just make noise. And so on and on.....Just answer the question you and Sword refuse to acknowledge. Are you a Charismatic like the church of Corinth or are you one who is 'ungifted/unlearned' in the things we talk about from experience? Why won't either of you ever just admit this one point? Your refusal to do so is very TELLING as to what you really believe I think.
John, the last remaining Apostle wrote Revelation.That's pretty funny. And not correct either.
First the humor. It seems that the Apostles lived longer than it took to write the books in the NT canon. So, how could they write that the gifts had not outlasted them?
And I did in fact present scripture to indicate that the gifts would outlast the Apostles. Here it is again. Don't you remember? I asked you if you were called.
Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
You're now just waffling like SWORD. OK then, change of game; forget everything you just said and answer the question based upon 'when' it was written. Is Paul addressing three groups of people or not?The gifts ceased with the Apostles. You do not have the real thing. Example: Those who spoke in tongues in Acts did so spontaneously. You had to be coached and told what to do. Those who spoke knew what they said. You do not. You just make noise. And so on and on.....
since Angels do not have voice boxes
You are now referring to angels who have been sent to Earth as messengers. Of course they have to have assumed human form in order to relate to us, as with the angel who spoke to the women at the tomb of Jesus. But you had been referring to Johns vision of angels in heaven.ah, c'mon! Angels spoke many times in the Bible.
In 1 Cor 13:1-3 Paul did exaggerate some things to make a point. In verse 2 the term all is used in relation to knowledge, mysteries and faith. This does not mean that knowledge does not exist. It does not mean that mysteries do not exist. It does not mean that faith does not exist. In verse 3 giving to the poor is also coupled with all in order to exaggerate to make the point. This does not mean that giving to the poor does not exist. Verse 3 mentions allowing experiencing physical suffering even to the point of death. Physical suffering is mentioned to the greatest degree to make a point. This does not meant that physical suffering for the gospel does not exist even to the greatest degree. The exaggeration of all of these things does not mean that these things do not exist, therefore you are not justified in saying tongues of angels does not exist because there is exaggeration of things in the two verses that follow after the verse that mentioned the tongues of angels.
In the verse that mentions languages of angels, languages of men is also mentioned in the same verse. If the context shows the "languages of men" is to be taken literally then the "and of angels" part of the sentence cannot be cut out as being completely different. In context, there is no change of thought.
I think the testimony of a spontaneous experience when the Spirit manifests in gifts is very good evidence that the gifts are in continuation. (have not ceased)Yes, there are some people who do say or think that way. However, none of it proves anything as far as the topic here is concerned--cessation or continuation.
And if you remembered from our former conversations, Spirit is capitalized not by translation but by interpretation. The AV 1611 had a small 's' in both cases in this verse. All the critical texts omit 'eis' which is translated "into" because of it's difficulty. Capitalization here in this verse came not as a point of better translating, but a matter of doctrinal pretext. And you can make a pretty sure bet that none of those translators spoke in tongues. A better translation/interpretation of that verse would say "all have been made to drink at one pneuma." And 'that pneuma' is the spirit of Christ which should not be capitalized, and not the Holy Spirit. When you got born again you received the holy spirit of Christ not the Holy Spirit. That the Holy Spirit is the spirit responsible for your spirit's regeneration was confirmed by my quote of John 3 which you conveniently did not deal with in my text.
Scripture, as shown here by others (multiple times by Steve) prove there is something after initial salvation especially so with Samaria. Phillip preached they "believed and were baptized" but they never received the baptism FROM the Holy Spirit with the evidence of supernatural power as on the day of Pentecost.
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