Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

Hazelelponi · Aug 1, 2018

Anto9us said:
Some 'restrictions' are given by Paul regarding the Corinthian church - both concerning Tongues and concerning Prophecy. Perhaps these were situational in Corinth, perhaps because some things got out of hand, these rules like how prophets should speak and that all Tongues should be interpreted are set down.

Let us look at what actually happens today.

Some churches, like the charismatic Episcopal church I once attended, go strictly by-the-book and there is no Tongues unless it is followed by an interpretation (either by someone other than the tongue-talker or by the tongue-talker themselves).

There are DIVERSE kinds of tongues, as Steve mentioned earlier.

What is called a 'prayer language' sometimes -- I have seen entire congregations praying all at once in praise -- and there was no interpretation for this kind of tongues; there was never intended a "message" to the congregation. A group of people with hands raised, praying in tongues all at once -- it's no big deal to those who are used to it; it could appear as mad babbling to the ungifted and unlearned or anyone unfamiliar to this practice.

So there actually exists a form of everybody praying in tongues at once and no interpretation is required or given.

1Co 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:27
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30
If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

A couple issues, the word translated as tongues means languages.

Silence is silent.

Corinth was a port of trade, so many languages would have been in evidence there.. so it would have been par for the course that if there were many with the gift of tongues there, which would likely have been due to its being situated as a port area, then the church may have gotten confusing at times without order.

what is now being interpreted in many charismatic churches to be a gift of the Holy Spirit is not Biblical.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
No. If I could understand it I wouldn’t be speaking in tongues I’d be speaking in a language known to me (English in my case as I know no other language)

Those who spoke in tongues knew what they were saying. Paul said they edified themselves. And understanding was the basis of edification.

Anto9us · Aug 1, 2018

1Co 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Jennifer Rothnie said:
If you believe, -then- you are saved! (John 11:40, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 12:44-50, Mark 16:16, Rom 10:9-13, Acts 2:21, Acts 16:29-31 etc)

"...He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” - Acts 16:29-31 [Not, "well, that depends on if God chooses to save you by grace or not. I guess if you believe we'll know He did."]

We are not saved before we believe. Scripture never says such a thing. Salvation is by grace through faith.
https://ebible.com/questions/15669-...is-is-not-of-ourselves-but-is-the-gift-of-god

Faith being a 'fruit of the Spirit' is not the same thing as our initial faith in Christ unto salvation - our faith Christ is Messiah is not a fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We do not receive the indwelling Spirit until after we believe ( Gal 3:2-3, Gal 3:10-14, Eph 1:11-14, II Cor 5:17,)

"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" Gal 3:2

"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal 3:13

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having also believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13-14

However, for a believer walking by the Spirit we do bear fruit out of our initial faith, including stronger faith:

"For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins." II Pet 1:5-11
And we even grow in our own faith - learning to trust God more and be faithful in trials, etc., hence why faith is also one of the traits of the fruit of the Spirit. Faith begets stronger faith when we submit to Christ.

"Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand," II Cor 10:15

"For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness." Col 2:5-7

This is all fine. But we believe because we are saved. We're not saved because we believe. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must have this before you can believe in the biblical sense.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Anto9us said:
1Co 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Yes, but they interpreted what they were saying. Today's tongue speakers do not know what they are saying.

Anto9us · Aug 1, 2018

1Co 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Dave L · Aug 1, 2018

Anto9us said:
1Co 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

This only says today's churches are out of order.

Anto9us · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
But we believe because we are saved. We're not saved because we believe.

You have it backwards (again).

Hazelelponi · Aug 1, 2018

Anto9us said:
1Co 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Those verses are telling you that the Spirit will always be in harmony with the understanding...

Aka. God is not the God of confusion..

swordsman1 · Aug 1, 2018

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
I’m referring to how the Holy Spirit operated with Christians in general back then not the apostles specifically. look at the verse I quoted to you the other day it stated all people have access to these gifts. I’m referring to how the Holy Spirit operates in Christians in general just as the verse is here. The 12 apostles were unique in their own right and had certain abilities, insights, and authority that the rest didn’t have . However everyone is declared to being able have manifestations of the Spirit
1 Corinthians 12:7-10 King James Version (KJV)

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. .

1 Cor 12:7 says that every beleiver is given a gift. It doesn't say that it must be one of those listed in the subsequent 2 verses, nor does it say those gifts listed must endure throughout the church age. There are 3 other lists of spiritual gifts which are equally as valid. Those other lists include the gift of apostleship and other gifts not mentioned here. Clearly at least one spiritual gift, apostleship, was withdrawn. And if one gift ceased, why not others that are also stated to be foundational to the church.

swordsman1 · Aug 1, 2018

Anto9us said:
RSV

1Co 14:39

So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do notforbid speaking in tongues;

The forbidding warned against in 1 Cor 14:39 was directed at members of the same congregation and was addressed to a church in which tongues was still active. If tongues was still active today and present in my church then of course I wouldn't forbid it.

If you think that today's practice is genuine NT tongues and wish to continue in it despite the biblical evidence to the contrary, then go right ahead. There, I'm not forbidding you.

It is interesting to note that even Pentecostalism's most respected theologian is unwilling to affirm that today's practice is genuine NT tongues. The most he is willing to say is that it is something analogous to NT tongues.

Gordon Fee - God’s Empowering Presence, p890
The question as to whether the “speaking in tongues” in contemporary Pentecostal and charismatic communities is the same in kind as that in the Pauline churches is moot – and probably somewhat irrelevant. There is simply no way to know. As an experienced phenomenon, it is analogous to theirs, meaning that it is understood to be a supernatural activity of the Spirit, which function in many of the same ways, and for many of its practitioners has similar value to that described by Paul.

Anto9us · Aug 1, 2018

How magnanimous of you to not forbid me.

swordsman1 · Aug 1, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
Faith is not equivalent to doctrine. This is something that may seem confusing, but those two things are distinctly different. When it comes to throwing around the word doctrine your talking about creeds and codification of teachings, and that is not what the Bible is talking about at all when it says "unity of FAITH" and of knowledge of the Son of God.

There can definitely be doctrinal differences that stand outside faith in and knowledge of the Son of God which dont affect the unity pf believers the Bible is talking about..

Correct. The 'unity of the faith' in Eph 4:13 is not referring to worldwide agreement on every nuance of doctrine. It is the unity which binds together those who share the common faith in Christ. It is the same "one faith" that Paul refers to just a few verses earlier in v5. It is by faith that the believers are united to Christ, and in being united to him they realize their own unity one with another. So yes millions of Christians throughout time have achieved unity in the faith thanks to the ministering of apostles and prophets (the original ones, not new ones), evangelists, pastors and teachers. That verse is no rebuttle of cessationism.

Hazelelponi · Aug 1, 2018

2 Corinthians 11:3-4

Important... those at Corinth seemed especially, in Paul's mind, open to Satan deceiving them in these areas..

Different Jesus
Different (Holy) Spirit
Different Gospel

If, those at Corinth were the most susceptible in these areas, what kind of care should be taken around those churches who present a different Spirit than all the rest?

Hillsage · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
Those who spoke in tongues knew what they were saying. Paul said they edified themselves. And understanding was the basis of edification.

When I'm praying in tongues my mind is unfruitful because the bible says no man understands what I'm saying and that includes me. But only those knowing how to rightly divide the word of truth even know there's two sources of spiritual tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

1CO 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

And I have done both for almost 50 years. I've prayed and sang alone in tongues, and I've prayed and sang in groups where others 'may have' or' may not have' sang and prayed along. No one was expecting an interpretation because we all understand that there are two sources of supernatural and spiritual tongues. One is from my/our spirit praying/singing which no one understands, and the other source is from the Holy Spirit as a manifesting gift of His, through us, when 'He wills' AND if we're obedient to do so. The first tongue is me speaking to God and the second tongue is the Holy Spirit speaking to man 'through a man' yielded to His prompting.

Blade · Aug 1, 2018

Am I reading that you the OP believe the gifts have stopped? As if its BETTER now and we dont need them now? As if that which is perfect HAS come? Not..yet. Until that day...THEN it will stop.

See I watched a year or two ago.. a well known man. Very nice saying what happen to people in the bible (about tongues) does not happen today. Hmm

Well I use to go to this bible study where maybe twice (I really cant remember) they would ask if I wanted the Holy Spirit. I would say no and they never said another word. One night I said yes. So they put out a chair and I sat down and he started to read the verses about tongues. He then asked me again do I want the holy Spirit? I said yes. So he prayed. He then stops and says "you got it". Huh? Nothing happen.. I felt nothing.. .. so I got up.. I to to sit down and BAM! It just came out.. I didnt try..was not thinking about ANYTHING. And I cant remember them every just talking in tongues.

See they would say "if we say anything that is not written do not believe us". So tongues.. WHY do you believe John 3:16? Why is in Luke any different? He said.. how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy Spirit to them that ask. ASK..JESUS not MAN said this. Really it is GOD that said ASK HIM.

Jesus told them to wait ..wait for what promise? JESUS asked the Father for what? ASKED! See I don't care what some MAN says.. they dont know any more then anyone else. They ALL read the word..search seek pray and then pop out what they think believe. Well some day YOU must take HIM at HIS word.. TRUST HIM..have FAITH..HE will NEVER give you something evil wrong bad. He said ASK.. MAN told you..its old its over its dead.. HE NEVER DID.

And when I pray in tongues.. wow.. its between me and my Father. All I am saying is.. if its written.. and JESUS IS REAL.. ASK HIM. Hes IN YOU! If is of GOD and for today.. JESUS I WANT IT ALL! For HIS kingdom..for HIS glory..to help...so I die so HE can live...

Hillsage · Aug 1, 2018

Anto9us said:
You have it backwards (again).

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

The Greek word for saved here is Passive, Indicative, second person, singular and FUTURE TENSE. IOW faith first, saved after.

Silly Uncle Wayne · Aug 1, 2018

Dave L said:
Those who spoke in tongues knew what they were saying. Paul said they edified themselves. And understanding was the basis of edification.

Those that spoke in tongues did not understand what they were speaking and they still managed to edify themselves.

So 1 Co 14: "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit."

Also you misunderstand 'edify'. It means to build up or make strong. It refers to buildings primarily... which are built using stone not words!

Edify in this context (only used in 1 Co if memory serves) simply means to build up or strengthen - it does not necessarily entail words (though clearly words are used in the case of prophecy edifying the church).

Those who speak in tongues will tell you that they feel edified by doing so, which means it achieves its goal even when no words of understanding are given (though in my experience hearing the interpretation is also edifying).

I see from Blade's comment above, that he too felt edified by speaking in tongues: "And when I pray in tongues.. wow.. its between me and my Father. All I am saying is.. if its written.. and JESUS IS REAL.. ASK HIM. Hes IN YOU! If is of GOD and for today.. JESUS I WANT IT ALL! For HIS kingdom..for HIS glory..to help...so I die so HE can live..."

So those who spoke in tongues did not know what they were saying. And edification is something that makes people stronger or feel built up, which applies to tongues from experience as well as from scripture.

Anto9us · Aug 1, 2018

I liked your testimony, Blade!

You in a chair -- me in a car...

Oscarr 50 years - Hillsage almost 50 -- me 45...

Well, I was going to the High School graduation of my fiance who was two grades behind me - I was carrying a book I was reading called YOU CAN RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST TODAY. Two of my classmates saw me and the book -- knowing me only as a partying football player of the past -- they had heard I had come to the Lord. "Let's go out to Judy's car and you can receive it RIGHT NOW!" said the bolder of the two girls and I was laid hands on in the car out in the parking lot.

They seemed disappointed that I didn't speak in Tongues right away.

Until I asked them if they too saw the blue flames that came through the roof of the car and enveloped me -- no, they hadn't seen that.

That night alone I sang in tongues in bed. Spoke in tongues the next day.

73-74

outpourings

Tons of spontaneous prayer meetings at the garage apartment of those two girls and kids of various denominations all over town getting baptized in the Holy Spirit

I was lead singer in a Christian rock band

There were Cessationists in those days, too.

Didn't listen to 'em then -- don't listen to 'em now.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 1, 2018

Anto9us said:
Are we the mad babblers and gibberish speakers, Hillsage?

I rather think it is the eisogesis and gibberish of the Cessationists which should be dismissed as 'mad babbling'

In actual fact, believers who speak and pray in tongues are the normal ones. Those who don't are the goofy ones!

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