Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

Anto9us said:

Not forbidding in the sense of BEING ABLE TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENNING, Albion...

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Well, no one is doing that, either. There are all sorts of churches in my city in which people are speaking in ways that they consider to be Biblical tongues. No one stops them or attempts it. And no one cares if they continue it in their own homes.

Albion said:

There are all sorts of churches in my city in which people are speaking in ways that they consider to be Biblical tongues. No one stops them or attempts it. And no one cares if they continue it in their own homes.

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Well, good for your city.

Apparently there are those in this thread that DO CARE if we continue to do it, and do attempt to stop it by saying it passed away.

Anto9us said:

Well, good for your city.

Apparently there are those in this thread that DO CARE if we continue to do it, and do attempt to stop it by saying it passed away.

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Huh? Caring that you continue to do what you do is not what I commented on.

I simply observed that no one is FORBIDDING you to do what you do. That was the accusation, the word that had been used--forbid.

κωλύω kōlýō, ko-loo'-o; from the base of G2849; to stop, i.e. prevent (by word or act):—forbid, hinder, keep from, let, not suffer, withstand.

to hinder, prevent, forbid

to withhold a thing from anyone

to deny or refuse one a thing

What would be the difference from first-century Corinth and today in America in this matter of 'forbidding' to speak with Tongues? Did Paul mean someone was putting a knife at one's throat if they tried to speak in Tongues? No, but that they preached against it -- just like the Tongues-Nay-Sayers in this thread.

JLB777 said:

Have we all come to the unity of faith?

Does everyone in Christ, believe the same doctrine?


The doctrine of Christ is what we all must both believe and do as a unified body, for this scripture to be fulfilled.


He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith ...


Till we all come to the unity of faith, there will be Pastors and Teachers, Evangelist's and Prophets, as well as Apostles.

JLB

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Faith is not equivalent to doctrine. This is something that may seem confusing, but those two things are distinctly different. When it comes to throwing around the word doctrine your talking about creeds and codification of teachings, and that is not what the Bible is talking about at all when it says "unity of FAITH" and of knowledge of the Son of God.

There can definitely be doctrinal differences that stand outside faith in and knowledge of the Son of God which dont affect the unity pf believers the Bible is talking about..

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Hazelelponi said:

When it comes to throwing around the word doctrine your talking about creeds

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The Bible speaks of doctrines and knew nothing of CREEDS.

We are a long way from being in 'the unity of the faith'.

Dave L said:

But you must have the Holy Spirit to have faith. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

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If you believe, -then- you are saved! (John 11:40, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 12:44-50, Mark 16:16, Rom 10:9-13, Acts 2:21, Acts 16:29-31 etc)

"...He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” - Acts 16:29-31 [Not, "well, that depends on if God chooses to save you by grace or not. I guess if you believe we'll know He did."]

We are not saved before we believe. Scripture never says such a thing. Salvation is by grace through faith.
https://ebible.com/questions/15669-...is-is-not-of-ourselves-but-is-the-gift-of-god

Faith being a 'fruit of the Spirit' is not the same thing as our initial faith in Christ unto salvation - our faith Christ is Messiah is not a fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We do not receive the indwelling Spirit until after we believe ( Gal 3:2-3, Gal 3:10-14, Eph 1:11-14, II Cor 5:17,)

"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" Gal 3:2

"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal 3:13

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having also believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13-14

However, for a believer walking by the Spirit we do bear fruit out of our initial faith, including stronger faith:

"For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins." II Pet 1:5-11
And we even grow in our own faith - learning to trust God more and be faithful in trials, etc., hence why faith is also one of the traits of the fruit of the Spirit. Faith begets stronger faith when we submit to Christ.

"Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand," II Cor 10:15

"For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness." Col 2:5-7

Anto9us said:

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



The Bible speaks of doctrines and knew nothing of CREEDS.

We are a long way from being in 'the unity of the faith'.

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The Bible in Ephesians is not saying doctrines... it's saying faith in and knowledge of the Son of God.. that is not the same thing as a doctrine which can (and often does) include things outside of that..

Examples of a "doctrinal" dispute is immersion baptism versus sprinkling baptism.. those are doctrinal disputes outside of faith in and knowledge of the Son of God.

We can have unity of faith while having slightly different doctrinal beliefs..

Whether or not we are to that point of unity of faith in and knowledge of the Son of God is a different matter entirely from the question "is the Bible saying we have to share the exact same doctrine?" In answer to that I say no..

I say no also, Hazel.
Never will all Christians on this earth share the same exact doctrine till He returns.

Dave L said:

Do you understand what you are saying when speaking in tongues?

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No. If I could understand it I wouldn’t be speaking in tongues I’d be speaking in a language known to me (English in my case as I know no other language)

nevermind. I think it was me to misunderstand..

Anto9us said:

What would be the difference from first-century Corinth and today in America in this matter of 'forbidding' to speak with Tongues? Did Paul mean someone was putting a knife at one's throat if they tried to speak in Tongues? No, but that they preached against it -- just like the Tongues-Nay-Sayers in this thread.

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I don't think that is, in actuality, what Paul was saying. But in any case, there are many churches for your practices, just as the Pentecostal churches, for their part, do not approve of observing the Lords Supper as it was believed by the early church. So there is a place for everyone.

swordsman1 said:

That depends on your interpretation of what "the perfect" or "completeness" (as the NIV and others better translate it) is.

I would say all that is claimed to be tongues today is counterfeit. I don't see any matching the only description of the gift in scripture (Acts 2) that being known foreign languages.

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Personal experience is not enough reason to "forbid speaking in tongues," which is a direct command of scripture. I Cor 13:49

Tongues is a gift that can easily be, and often is, misused. Some deliberately fake it to look more spiritual (like a church (cult) I visited once where the Pastor would start yodeling and the worship team start babbling on cue, stopping when he stopped, but it was all an act.) Some mistake glossolalia for tongues, when glossolalia is just nonsense utterances without syntax and is easy for many humans to do (and common in religions throughout the world.) Other times the tongue may be genuine, but the usage 'improper' as more than one person speaks at once or no interpretation is sought or given.

But the misuse of a gift doesn't mean it should be forbidden, which was part of Paul's letter on tongues and other gifts in I Cor. (Just like false teachers and misuse of the gospel are not a reason to throw the gospel out.)

The proper usage of tongues can still be found today:

- Some missionaries working in tribes where no one knows the language have reported being able to speak with the people in tongues to share the gospel
- Some missionaries have received the ability to speak in a tongue (Spanish, for example) that they never trained in or learned
- Some church groups allow people to speak in tongues so long as they or someone else interprets, edifying the church.

I've personally encountered both the misuse and proper usage of tongues. For example:

- The cult I mentioned faking tongues to look hyper-spiritual and 'awe' the congregation (faking - the pastor out of ego and the worship team out of ego/fear)
- An unbeliever in a park using glossolalia (demonic possession)
- A Pastor speaking in tongues quietly when praying off in a corner (Genuine. I translated for my sister who was with me as I was close enough to hear.)
- Several people in a prayer group babbling over each other at the same time (Glossolalia, though they genuinely believed they were speaking in tongues. Unfortunately, this is a common problem in groups where they teach anyone can speak in tongues, that it should be pursued, and that being able to speak in tongues is treated as more 'spiritual' by the group)
- A woman in church giving a tongue and interpretation (genuine)
- A woman on a worship team pausing to break into glossolalia (glossolalia, though she thought it was genuine)
- A boy in a Bible study praying off to himself in tongues (genuine)
- Two people during a group prayer speaking in tongues (genuine but improper, as everyone even those speaking in English were speaking at the same time and it was an unedifying cacophony)


Anyways, where scripture is clear "Do not forbid speaking in tongues," church groups should not take their own authority and ban it. However, proper rules should be used (such as Paul's guidelines of only one at a time, no more than two or three in a session, and always with interpretation in public.) And since not everyone has the same gifts and "not all speak in tongues" (I Cor 12:30) church groups should not unduly encourage it or treat it as a higher mark of spirituality.

It makes sense that faith, doctrine and creeds are all different things -- they are different words -- but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

There are different ways to look at 4:13 -- corporately and individually -- neither the church as a body nor me (or anyone else, maybe) as an individual has ARRIVED yet, IMHO.

Albion said:

Besides, no one is actually forbidding the practice that Pentecostal Christians think is speaking in tongues. Is there?

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Condemning is a pretty close second to forbidding. And I'm going to assume those 'doing so', go to churches 'claiming so'.

Hillsage said:

Condemning is a pretty close second to forbidding.

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I wouldn't say so, since forbid is meant to keep from happening. Obviously the practice is happening.

Albion said:

Huh? Caring that you continue to do what you do is not what I commented on.

I simply observed that no one is FORBIDDING you to do what you do. That was the accusation, the word that had been used--forbid.

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Why would Paul have to use the word "forbid" unless those who were "ungifted, unlearned" were maybe doing so? That is obviously just a guess, but based upon the fact that the Charismatic church of Corinth obviously had no problem with tongues as far as they were concerned before the "ungifted, unlearned" showed up to judge them as "mad" according to Paul.

Anto9us said:

It makes sense that faith, doctrine and creeds are all different things -- they are different words -- but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

There are different ways to look at 4:13 -- corporately and individually -- neither the church as a body nor me (or anyone else, maybe) as an individual has ARRIVED yet, IMHO.

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There is something I personally believe.. that whether Lutheran or Methodist, Catholic or Baptist - there can be people in ALL these denominations who are truly saved, truly called out, truly God's.

It's not specific doctrine which saves you, it's a saving faith, this saving faith can be found in many denominations..

Many will disagree with me, because some believe that saving faith is only found in their doctrine, but I believe saving faith stands outside (many/most) doctrine.

In the same way, the unity of faith spoken of in Ephesians, is much the same, it's a unity of saving faith among believers, and that unity stands outside doctrine..

It's my belief in Ephesians which causes me to see the "church attended" to matter far less than the belief that leads to salvation.

I, a person with saving faith, can attend any church which teaches the Gospel. That is unity of faith, verses doctrines which matter far less, doctrines don't save you.

Albion said:

I don't think that is, in actuality, what Paul was saying. But in any case, there are many churches for your practices, just as the Pentecostal churches, for their part, do not approve of observing the Lords Supper as it was believed by the early church. So there is a place for everyone.

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Not in my experience of Pentecostal churches. They were the same as other churches (baptist, evangelical, independent, charismatic)

Some 'restrictions' are given by Paul regarding the Corinthian church - both concerning Tongues and concerning Prophecy. Perhaps these were situational in Corinth, perhaps because some things got out of hand, these rules like how prophets should speak and that all Tongues should be interpreted are set down.

Let us look at what actually happens today.

Some churches, like the charismatic Episcopal church I once attended, go strictly by-the-book and there is no Tongues unless it is followed by an interpretation (either by someone other than the tongue-talker or by the tongue-talker themselves).

There are DIVERSE kinds of tongues, as Steve mentioned earlier.

What is called a 'prayer language' sometimes -- I have seen entire congregations praying all at once in praise -- and there was no interpretation for this kind of tongues; there was never intended a "message" to the congregation. A group of people with hands raised, praying in tongues all at once -- it's no big deal to those who are used to it; it could appear as mad babbling to the ungifted and unlearned or anyone unfamiliar to this practice.

So there actually exists a form of everybody praying in tongues at once and no interpretation is required or given.

1Co 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:27
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30
If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.