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Speak lovingly of Mary

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No, I"m not Christ.

Care to answer my question?




.

Your question is about you; this exhibits the result of the theological distortion resulting from the failure to acknowlede the uniqueness of Christ, the God-man, and the uniqueness of the skopos of Mary, and her ever-virginity. Its arises from the distortion that Mary must have had more children, must have birthed Christ's flesh as others. Must have had a marriage like any other. She gave her flesh to Christ, it was His. She could not have shared it with another in any way.


The distortion is shown in extrapolating from yourself to Christ. The distortion is shown in extrapolating from your parents to Mary and Joseph.

Christ is the center. All understanding about Christ should have HIM at the center, not you or any other.
 
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The only unique one is Christ.. Mary was but a mere human being that gave birth to God.. She was the avenue to the word becoming Flesh. Her flesh was joined with Joseph her husband.. Christs flesh was joined to no one.. For He was indeed God in the flesh and had no need for a helpmeet.. We was creator while Mary was the created. When a woman gives birth to a child the child carries the DNA of both Parents. They do not carry the flesh of their parents.. SO for you to say that if Mary gave herself to her husband would be joining Christ to Joseph is not truth.. For when a person that is married is joined as one flesh it is in the marriage and not in giving birth.. We go on in our married lives after the birth of our children and we are not joining our children to our husband.. That is done through DNA..
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Your question arises from the distortion that Mary must have had more children, must have birthed Christ's flesh as others. Must have had a marriage like any other. She gave her flesh to Christ, it was His. She could not have shared it with another in any way.

No.

YOU are the one insisting that Mary had no sex ever.

I have only one position: Mary gave birth to Jesus and was a virgin at the time. Thus, I have two doctrines about Her: She is the mother of God and was a virgin at His birth.

But this thread is about what is distinctively LOVING about Her to spread around the world. Well, the RCC says as Dogma and the EO does as doctrine that it is distincively LOVING to insist that she had no sex ever. Thus, I"ve asked 3 questions: Why THIS specific, singular, particular issue? How do you KNOW this is true (the RCC specifically states in its official Catechism that it is a SIN to spread a story or report about a person unless it is SUBSTANTIATED and if a SIN, that's hardly being loving - thus t he RCC insists the issue is not popularity or reasonableness or whatever, t he sole issue is if it is substantiated)? And finally, were is the permission from Mary to share this supremely private, intensively intimate, potentially embarrassing and hurtful and painful tidbit about her sex life with t he world's 6.5 billion people (including kids)?


Now, to the immediate subject. You seem to be trying to show that because Jesus was born of a woman, THEREFORE it is dogmatically substantiated that Mary MUST be a perpetual virgin. I think this is entirely baseless, and you've offered NOTHING to support your point - only flaming me because I don't just accept it as dogmatic substantiation. Look, Paul said that Jesus was born of a woman (NOT perpetual virgin). So was I. So were you. How does that dogmatically substantiate that our mothers are perpetual virgins? You won't answer the question because, IMHO, it's OBVIOUS your apologetic here is entirely baseless and moot.




All understanding about Christ should have HIM at the center, not you or any other.


Okay... How does that dogmatically substantiate that Mary was a perpetual virgin? Or my mother because I was born of a woman? :confused:


Back to the issue of why it is distinctively LOVING toward a couple to insist - as a matter of dogma - how often they have sex (if at all)?




.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Jesus did not have the DNA of Joseph.. For Joseph was not Christs dad.. God the Father is the Dad of Jesus.. Pretty simple biology/.

Since I get my DNA from my parents, that does not dogmatically substantiate that they are perpetual virgins.





.
 
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narnia59

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To say that Mary after giving herself, her body, wholly to God and then gave her body to another is to spread the rumor that she broke her vow to God.

How is that loving ? To accuse her of so great a sin ?
People seem to be comfortable in believing that God simply 'borrowed' Mary and then gave her back to Joseph.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Then it would seem to me that you are guilty of idolatry.

Only if I worshipped Her as God, and I don't.



Now, back to the subject. Is it distinctively LOVING to a couple to insist on how often that couple has sex (or not) as a matter of highest importance taht all the world must know and if they deny such they are a heretic and thereby their salvation is in question?




.
 
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lionroar0

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Since I get my DNA from my parents, that does not dogmatically substantiate that they are perpetual virgins.





.

Since we don't have the DNA of Mary. We don't know that she is the mother of Jesus.

Since we don't have access to the originals text of the NT nor their writtes. It could all just be a one vicious rumor that has existed for 2000yrs.

Peace
 
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lionroar0

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Jesus did not have the DNA of Joseph.. For Joseph was not Christs dad.. God the Father is the Dad of Jesus.. Pretty simple biology/.

Since there was not DNA testing back then and no substantiation that the NT is "God-breathed."

Then logically we can state that it is possible that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus. As other texts ancient texts have stated.

Peace
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Since there was not DNA testing back then and no substantiation that the NT is "God-breathed."

Then logically we can state that it is possible that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus. As other texts ancient texts have stated.

Peace
Well, that would at least make it more believable to the Jews. :thumbsup:
 
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Philothei

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Since we don't have the DNA of Mary. We don't know that she is the mother of Jesus.

Since we don't have access to the originals text of the NT nor their writtes. It could all just be a one vicious rumor that has existed for 2000yrs.

Peace

There are so many things that we do not know and we rely on Tradition...It is unfortunate that 200 years of tradition have replaced 1800 years of Tradition...
 
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No.

YOU are the one insisting that Mary had no sex ever.

I have only one position: Mary gave birth to Jesus and was a virgin at the time. Thus, I have two doctrines about Her: She is the mother of God and was a virgin at His birth.

Actually, this is a position you take, but is not not your central position. The core from which you evaluate and question is evidenced in nearly every post you make. Your "theology" is clearly anthropocentric. You do not start from Christ, and then understand all else through the light of Him. You start from yourself and look at Christ and Mary and the things of God in general as a comparison to your own ideas and the way you think they ought to be. This is a small standard with which to know the pre-eternal God. It makes Him the size of the human brain which, in comparison, is a most puny thing.

Your epistemology has gotten in the way; where it suits, you apply the experiential model -- there is no proof for the NT, so you say the equivalent of "all Christians accept it" ie experience it as valid. When it comes to "dogma", then you revert to the mode of epistemology that seeks knowledge in a text, or argument; knowing through intellectual uncovering. In this sense, you embrace both "schools" of epistemology in an opportunistic manner. You mix and if your method were not so haphazard, you would be approaching the third option. This third form has a widom, however, that you have not yet learned: that all discovery of knowledge is limited by the manner in which the mind understands.

In this, in using the epistemological praxis of Sola Scriptura, you have limited God and the things of God to the length and breadth of the human mind. Paul warned about this sort of secularization, the philosophy of men. It cramps the heart and mind, disallowing God His rightful "throne".

As an example, you seek to understand Mary as "any mother", and become deeply offended that she does not fit the mold of your mother. You seek to understand her role in the Incarnation through your own conception and birth, forgetting that you are not the model for Christ. The forcefulness and repetitive nature of your posts on these matters betray, at least in their written tone, a sense of offense that Christ is the center through which to evaluate the things of God, not yourself. This is the result of anthropocentric "theology".

But this thread is about what is distinctively LOVING about Her to spread around the world. Well, the RCC says as Dogma and the EO does as doctrine that it is distincively LOVING to insist that she had no sex ever.


Thus, I"ve asked 3 questions: Why THIS specific, singular, particular issue? How do you KNOW this is true (the RCC specifically states in its official Catechism that it is a SIN to spread a story or report about a person unless it is SUBSTANTIATED and if a SIN, that's hardly being loving - thus t he RCC insists the issue is not popularity or reasonableness or whatever, t he sole issue is if it is substantiated)? And finally, were is the permission from Mary to share this supremely private, intensively intimate, potentially embarrassing and hurtful and painful tidbit about her sex life with t he world's 6.5 billion people (including kids)?
Here is the epistemology of the enlightenment, this philosophy of men. And its also anthropocentric. God is love, but love is not God. And you make your personal standard the core through which you evaluate. And you have forgotten one immensly important thing: the 6.5 billion you mention (a number derived from ???) are family. This teaching was known among the family of Church, and was shared with family. It was not kerygma. It was not until challenges arose from the crucible of secularization that it was discussed more openly. Supremely private ? Yes, the family is the realm of the private. But the Incarnation, and our redemption are intensely "public". Christ came for all. For those that will have Him, these are family. Would you be embarrased to bear Christ ? Would anything that came from Christ, from association with Him, be hurtful ? Only to the secular, only in humanism.
Now, to the immediate subject. You seem to be trying to show that because Jesus was born of a woman, THEREFORE it is dogmatically substantiated that Mary MUST be a perpetual virgin. I think this is entirely baseless, and you've offered NOTHING to support your point - only flaming me because I don't just accept it as dogmatic substantiation. Look, Paul said that Jesus was born of a woman (NOT perpetual virgin). So was I. So were you. How does that dogmatically substantiate that our mothers are perpetual virgins? You won't answer the question because, IMHO, it's OBVIOUS your apologetic here is entirely baseless and moot.
Your dogmatic pronouncement of "moot" can be proven how ? Your dogmatic pronouncement of "nothing to prove your point ? I do think I must fail to explain things well, as no matter what I post, you repeat the same statements and questions.

This "philosophy" you appeal to, this epistemological ground you walk on, lacks the center for which all mankind was intended. Christ. Christ is not known through "epistemological praxis".

What is needed is not the epistomology of the last few centuries. What is needed is pistis.





Okay... How does that dogmatically substantiate that Mary was a perpetual virgin? Or my mother because I was born of a woman? :confused:

There it is again -- appeal to "intellectual uncovering of knowledge" and "self as measure". A sort of humanism.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Okay... How does that dogmatically substantiate that Mary was a perpetual virgin? Or my mother because I was born of a woman? :confused:
There it is again -- appeal to "intellectual uncovering of knowledge" and "self as measure". A sort of humanism.
Ahh, but we are only "human" after all :blush:

Reve 22:8 And I, John, the one hearing and beholding these things, and when I hear and behold, I fall to worship before the feet of the messenger, the one showing to me these-things. 9 And he is saying to me: "Be seeing no! a fellow bond-servent of thee I am and of the brothers of thee, the prophets, and of the ones keeping the Words of the scrollet, this. To the GOD worship thou! :)

 
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Qoheleth

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Actually, this is a position you take, but is not not your central position. The core from which you evaluate and question is evidenced in nearly every post you make. Your "theology" is clearly anthropocentric. You do not start from Christ, and then understand all else through the light of Him. You start from yourself and look at Christ and Mary and the things of God in general as a comparison to your own ideas and the way you think they ought to be. This is a small standard with which to know the pre-eternal God. It makes Him the size of the human brain which, in comparison, is a most puny thing.

Your epistemology has gotten in the way; where it suits, you apply the experiential model -- there is no proof for the NT, so you say the equivalent of "all Christians accept it" ie experience it as valid. When it comes to "dogma", then you revert to the mode of epistemology that seeks knowledge in a text, or argument; knowing through intellectual uncovering. In this sense, you embrace both "schools" of epistemology in an opportunistic manner. You mix and if your method were not so haphazard, you would be approaching the third option. This third form has a widom, however, that you have not yet learned: that all discovery of knowledge is limited by the manner in which the mind understands.

In this, in using the epistemological praxis of Sola Scriptura, you have limited God and the things of God to the length and breadth of the human mind. Paul warned about this sort of secularization, the philosophy of men. It cramps the heart and mind, disallowing God His rightful "throne".

As an example, you seek to understand Mary as "any mother", and become deeply offended that she does not fit the mold of your mother. You seek to understand her role in the Incarnation through your own conception and birth, forgetting that you are not the model for Christ. The forcefulness and repetitive nature of your posts on these matters betray, at least in their written tone, a sense of offense that Christ is the center through which to evaluate the things of God, not yourself. This is the result of anthropocentric "theology".




Here is the epistemology of the enlightenment, this philosophy of men. And its also anthropocentric. God is love, but love is not God. And you make your personal standard the core through which you evaluate. And you have forgotten one immensly important thing: the 6.5 billion you mention (a number derived from ???) are family. This teaching was known among the family of Church, and was shared with family. It was not kerygma. It was not until challenges arose from the crucible of secularization that it was discussed more openly. Supremely private ? Yes, the family is the realm of the private. But the Incarnation, and our redemption are intensely "public". Christ came for all. For those that will have Him, these are family. Would you be embarrased to bear Christ ? Would anything that came from Christ, from association with Him, be hurtful ? Only to the secular, only in humanism.
Your dogmatic pronouncement of "moot" can be proven how ? Your dogmatic pronouncement of "nothing to prove your point ? I do think I must fail to explain things well, as no matter what I post, you repeat the same statements and questions.

This "philosophy" you appeal to, this epistemological ground you walk on, lacks the center for which all mankind was intended. Christ. Christ is not known through "epistemological praxis".

What is needed is not the epistomology of the last few centuries. What is needed is pistis.







There it is again -- appeal to "intellectual uncovering of knowledge" and "self as measure". A sort of humanism.



Very well said, but....


How does that dogmatically substantiate that Mary was a perpetual virgin?


lol, sorry I just wanted to be the first to say this. Forgive me.

I hope you do not expect your post to be answered with any particular intelligent discourse or integrity.

You will be met with self-assurance that self will substantiate what self believes from self documentation of self made parameters of self concocting standards developed by self being absorbed in self narcissism because self says so and all of this will be said to be unselfish because self is only accountable to self in its own little self world. So says the self same self.




Q
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Very well said, but....

How does that dogmatically substantiate that Mary was a perpetual virgin?

lol, sorry I just wanted to be the first to say this. Forgive me.

I hope you do not expect your post to be answered with any particular intelligent discourse or integrity.

You will be met with self-assurance that self will substantiate what self believes from self documentation of self made parameters of self concocting standards developed by self being absorbed in self narcissism because self says so and all of this will be said to be unselfish because self is only accountable to self in its own little self world. So says the self same self.
Q
EH? ^_^
 
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Philothei

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Her flesh was joined with Joseph her husband..

No where in the Bible it says that.... you are assuming that because she was married...(although bible does not even talk about the actual event only by reference to what the Angel said.... "do not hesitate to take Mary as your bride".....)

There is a percentage (low I am sure) of married couples who do remain celibant during their marriage either out of choice or because one of the partners due to injury or other misfortune chose to remain married but do not have bodily relations...

How sure you are that Mary and Joseph did not have this kind of relationship????

You just assume this... You have no witness to testify to it. And the percentage is still there ....There is 50% chance she can belong to that category... given the "rumor" some of you accuse the Church of the Apostles to have spread..... You actually "spread" yet another rumor... nothing more...
 
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