Speak lovingly of Mary

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is that Mary was a perpetual virgin.




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[Uphill Battle]

And this is the madness which I speak of.

You contend that you are not, of yourselves, an authority and you have leaders.

What qualifies in the Protestant world, a leader?

nothing of which you'd accept as valid, so what does it matter? We have leaders. We just don't believe that they have special powers.

Basically a Protestant is free to "church shop". When they find a capable pastor who is truly "Sola scriptura" that is the pastor agrees with the person, then they consider them to be a suitable leader. But only as long as the pastor agrees with the person and if the pastor begins to stray from what the individual believes to be "Sola scriptura" correct, then they begin to "church shop" again for a true "Sola scriptura" pastor or the congregation (or certain members) will boot the pastor, if possible.

heh. you've quite obviously not really paid much attention outside of your "how silly protestants are" classes.

This draws into question who is really a leader and why. This also begs the question of ecclesiology, authority passed on by Christ, and yes informed submission. Of course this involves decision making.

exactly. YOU CHOSE.

As usual you miss the point and then jump back into your own world and constant mantra.

Have you nothing new to add, its the same over and over and over and over and over and over again.

And for what its worth, protestants are leaving their churches for Catholicism and Orthodoxy in massive numbers...and so what does that prove, nothing.



BD

and others are leaving. Oh well... nothing proved, nothing gained.

and the Scriptures do not say that the Blessed Mother had other children




peace

so long as you listen only to the Apostolic take on it, where they weren't married at all.. or was it that he DID marry her, but he was really really old? or was it that they were cousins, not brothers.... no wait... it's HALF brothers from Josephs previous marriage.... er.... which is it again?

sorry, if you can't get the story straight, it's hard to find it remotely credible.

still 1+1=2

Josiah, its about love and holiness and the will of God in that His ways are not our ways. Heart body and soul. Serving and submitting to God has many forms. Lets not forget that virginity was important enough for Christ to base a parable around it.



BD

he also made a parable about houses. and a parable about pearls. and a parable about money. Oh! that's a good one... I think Christ thought material possessions, and riches were really really important.

that's a really silly conclusion to draw!

lets be honest. Somehow, sex is good, and holy and a wonderful gift from God, and part of the "sacrament" of marriage, EXCEPT in the case of Mary, where it would be a horrible defilement if her husband had sex with her.....

utter foolishness.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I think all those who are saying that the dogma, or teaching, about the PV not being about sex, really need to look up what virgin means.

PV-believer: How DARE you talk about Mary having sex! how disrespectful! You shouldn't talke about Mary and sex! (here comes the hypocritical part.) She was a perpetual virgin!

Pv-believer: We don't believe sex is dirty! stop saying it! We only believe that sex would be a defilement if you're talking about holy perpetual virgin mary. So get your story straight! (sorry, I snickered when I wrote this one.)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

Thanks for clarifying that

 

[Thekla]

I think all those who are saying that the dogma, or teaching, about the PV not being about sex, really need to look up what virgin means.

PV-believer: How DARE you talk about Mary having sex! how disrespectful! You shouldn't talke about Mary and sex! (here comes the hypocritical part.) She was a perpetual virgin!

Pv-believer: We don't believe sex is dirty! stop saying it! We only believe that sex would be a defilement if you're talking about holy perpetual virgin mary. So get your story straight! (sorry, I snickered when I wrote this one.)

I guess I'm being over-sensitive, but this sounds awfully condescending; following on the heels of the apparent accusation of idolatry (hyperdoulia of objects -- ie servants to objects), is this meant for a dialogue or a diatribe ?

 

[Thekla]

I think all those who are saying that the dogma, or teaching, about the PV not being about sex, really need to look up what virgin means.

PV-believer: How DARE you talk about Mary having sex! how disrespectful! You shouldn't talke about Mary and sex! (here comes the hypocritical part.) She was a perpetual virgin!

Pv-believer: We don't believe sex is dirty! stop saying it! We only believe that sex would be a defilement if you're talking about holy perpetual virgin mary. So get your story straight! (sorry, I snickered when I wrote this one.)

Yes, I know what "virgin" means; I have extra virgin olive oil sitting on my counter.

Perhaps if you would be willing to put aside your pre-conceptions for a moment; as I replied to you last night, the point is about agia and (to add) also skopos/purpose. It is about the particular "purpose" of Mary, it is in reference for what is "set aside/agia" for God. Mary is not every other person; why does she (and her life) need to be formed in the image of ours ?

 

[Thekla]

The Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

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I'll respond to my own question:
God's command to Hosea to take the prostitute Gomer as a wife was not "about sex"; it was about "agia", exclusivity, relationship to God. Israel had again gone astray. God was faithful to Israel, but Israel had failed to remain faithful to Him. Hosea's marriage to Gomer was a "typos", a shadow or an "anadeiksis or "showing forth" of the relationship between God and Israel.

Spiritually, if our heart is fully given to Christ, there is room for no other to reign; this is a gift from God, but as in the OT, this relationship - and exclusivity -- is not forced. But ultimately our "skopos/purpose" in life, and its fruition is for the heart to become "agia-ed" to God. No room for others, just Him. It is not easy to maintain this relationship on our end; we tend to rebuff even grace. We often stray, as did Israel.

In the case of Mary: if the heart is to be given exclusively over to Christ, there is room for no other . To admit "others" to the seat or throne of the heart after Christ has there resided is tantamount to the wandering of Israel. If the heart is to remain exclusive to Him, the womb of Mary is "typos/shadow" of the spiritual heart. We are to love God with all and above all. The womb bears a further relationship to the human heart; it is in the heart that sin is conceived. It is in the womb of Mary that, hearing and keeping the word of God, the pre-Incarnate Christ is enfleshed. Likewise in our heart - if we hear the word of God and keep it - Christ may reign. And if we "keep it", only Christ will reign --- this is again an exclusivity. What has been set aside for God, by God, achieves its skopos/purpose, its fruit, in exclusivity (as opposed to "double mindedness).

The ever-virginity of Mary is an ana-deiksis/showing forth of God's purpose for her fulfilled - bearing fruit. In this case, the Christ. The fact that she voluntarily remained a virgin is not surprising.

Like the marriage of Hosea to Gomer, this is not about sex.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The ever-virginity of Mary is an ana-deiksis/showing forth of God's purpose for her fulfilled - bearing fruit. In this case, the Christ. The fact that she voluntarily remained a virgin is not surprising.

Greetings Thekla! Sure beats birth control pills

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7292816
What if Mary said no?

 

[MamaZ]

and the Scriptures do not say that the Blessed Mother had other children




peace

But they do say Joseph took Mary as His wife and kept her a virgin until Christ was born...
They also show us Jesus had brothers and names them and says he had sisters..
Paul also shows us James was the Lords brother..

 

[Thekla]

But they do say Joseph took Mary as His wife and kept her a virgin until Christ was born...
They also show us Jesus had brothers and names them and says he had sisters..
Paul also shows us James was the Lords brother..

As we have discussed before, the use of the word until does not state what will happen after. Any condition can happen after, but the condition of "after" is beyond the scope of the word until.

The Bible as translated into English may give that sense, but the word "brother" is narrower in scope than the word "adelphos". Further, the broad meaning of adelphos (ie, the correct definition of the word) is evidenced in Greek writing and culture at that time.

There is no solid evidence in the Bible that Mary had other children; your understanding and my understanding both rely on "tradition". In this case, we have different traditions.

 

[narnia59]

Never mind....

 

[Thekla]

and Mary's sister Mary in the Gospel of John ...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As we have discussed before, the use of the word until does not state what will happen after. Any condition can happen after, but the condition of "after" is beyond the scope of the word until.

The Bible as translated into English may give that sense, but the word "brother" is narrower in scope than the word "adelphos". Further, the broad meaning of adelphos (ie, the correct definition of the word) is evidenced in Greek writing and culture at that time.

There is no solid evidence in the Bible that Mary had other children; your understanding and my understanding both rely on "tradition". In this case, we have different traditions.

Yeah. I notice a lot of that on the GT board

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

this is not about sex.

Knowing a bit of Catholic spirituality, I think you are referring to some of the implications that some make from this dogma. The dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary is that Mary was a perpetual virgin - just exactly as the title and the Catholic Catechism states. Nothing about her "heart." Nothing about sex defiling the wife. Nothing about Joseph being unwilling to the THAT to Her, nothing about Christ dwelling - none of those things are the dogma. The dogma is about one thing: Mary had no sex ever. I don't doubt implications of that are made, but the dogma is what it is.

One might have a dogma of "Josiah Drives a Toyota." Now, you might have all kinds of implications. Josiah is a perfect driver. Toyotas are infallible cars. Driving is a holy venture. This makes Josiah really cool. This makes Toyotas really cool. I suppose there are an endless variety of implications one might make from this dogmatic statement of fact - but none of those ARE the dogmatic statement of fact; they MIGHT be implications of the dogma but they are not the dogma.


The Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is that Mary was a perpetual virgin. I'm not sure why you want to deny that.









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[Thekla]

Knowing a bit of Catholic spirituality, I think you are referring to some of the implications that some make from this dogma. The dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary is that Mary was a perpetual virgin - just exactly as the title and the Catholic Catechism states. Nothing about her "heart." Nothing about sex defiling the wife. Nothing about Joseph being unwilling to the THAT to Her, nothing about Christ dwelling - none of those things are the dogma. The dogma is about one thing: Mary had no sex ever. I don't doubt implications of that are made, but the dogma is what it is.









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No, I did not say that sex defiles the wife, nor do the RC. This is a repetition of your assumption, not a response to my post. As I pointed out, no explanation "satisfies you", nor do you engage in dialogue to explore another's posts. This is not discussion.

Again: was God's command that Hosea marry a prostitute "all about sex" ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No, I did not say that sex defiles the wife, nor do the RC. This is a repetition of your assumption, not a response to my post. As I pointed out, no explanation "satisfies you", nor do you engage in dialogue to explore another's posts. This is not discussion.

Again: was God's command that Hosea marry a prostitute "all about sex" ?

Prostitute:

1.a woman who engages in sexual intercourse for money; harlot; harlot. 2.a man who engages in sexual acts for money. 3.a person who willingly uses his or her talent or ability in a base and unworthy way, usually for money. –verb (used with object) 4.to sell or offer (oneself) as a prostitute. 5.to put to any base or unworthy use: to prostitute one's talents.

Revelation 17:1 And came one out of the seven messengers of the ones having the seven bowls and he speaks with me saying to me "Hither thou! I shall be showing to thee the judgement of the Prostitute/pornhV <4204>, the Great, the one sitting upon the many waters"

Reve 19:2 That true and just the judgings of Him, that He judges the Prostitute/pornhn <4204>, the Great, who-any corrupts the land in the prostitution/porneia <4202 of Her...............

Revelation 22:15 Without the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the prostitutes/pornoi <4205>, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a Falsehood .

 

[Philothei]

Prostitute:

1.a woman who engages in sexual intercourse for money; harlot; harlot. 2.a man who engages in sexual acts for money. 3.a person who willingly uses his or her talent or ability in a base and unworthy way, usually for money. &#8211;verb (used with object) 4.to sell or offer (oneself) as a prostitute. 5.to put to any base or unworthy use: to prostitute one's talents.

Revelation 17:1 And came one out of the seven messengers of the ones having the seven bowls and he speaks with me saying to me "Hither thou! I shall be showing to thee the judgement of the Prostitute/pornhV <4204>, the great, the one sitting upon the many waters"

Reve 19:2 That true and just the judgings of Him, that He judges the Prostitute/pornhn <4204>, the Great, who-any corrupts the land in the prostitution/porneia <4202 of Her...............

Revelation 22:15 Without the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the prostitutes/pornoi <4205>, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a Falsehood .

Yeah...I think we know what it means...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yeah...I think we know what it means...

That word is used 12 times in the NT. 3 times in the Gospels and 5 times in Revelation.
Imagine the Judean's reaction when He said this to them

Matthew 21:31 "Which of the two did the will of the Father"? They say, "The first". Is saying to them the Jesus
"Verily I am saying to ye, the tax-collectors and the prostitutes/pornai <4204> are preceding ye into the Kingdom of the God;

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

No, I did not say that sex defiles the wife,

I didn't say you did, nor did I say the dogma does. I simply pointed out that there seems to be a great desire to talk about other issues rather than the dogma of The Perpetual Virginity of Mary. There might be IMPLICATIONS form it, as in the one I mentioned which seems to be the most common implication that Catholics mention, but I agree with you - that's not the dogma. The dogma is this: the Perpetual (forever) Virginity (no sexual intercourse) of Mary. Do you want to discuss the dogma?

This is not discussion.

It's mostly 160+ pages of diversions and evasions. The issue is how is the spreading of this particular claim that Mary Had No Sex EVER distinctively and particularly LOVING toward her , why is the issue of how often a couple has sex (if at all) a matter of dogma and the particularly, distinctively LOVING to tell the whole world about - and to deny it is to be a heretic whose salvation is in question.

My reading of the Catechism, the instruction of my Catholic teachers and the words "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary" tell me the dogma is about Mary being a Perpetual Virgin. I do understand that you disagree, but you've revealed nothing from the Catechism that says that the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is not that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin. Thus, I guess we'll need to disagree on that.





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[Thekla]

I didn't say you did, nor did I say the dogma does. I simply pointed out that there seems to be a great desire to talk about other issues rather than the dogma of The Perpetual Virginity of Mary. There might be IMPLICATIONS form it, as in the one I mentioned which seems to be the most common implication that Catholics mention, but I agree with you - that's not the dogma. The dogma is this: the Perpetual (forever) Virginity (no sexual intercourse) of Mary. Do you want to discuss the dogma?




It's mostly 160+ pages of diversions and evasions. The issue is how is the spreading of this particular claim that Mary Had No Sex EVER distinctively and particularly LOVING toward her , why is the issue of how often a couple has sex (if at all) a matter of dogma and the particularly, distinctively LOVING to tell the whole world about - and to deny it is to be a heretic whose salvation is in question.

My reading of the Catechism, the instruction of my Catholic teachers and the words "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary" tell me the dogma is about Mary being a Perpetual Virgin.


Did you want to discuss that dogma? Did you want to respond to the two issues I raised?





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I would like to have a discussion but this seems impossible; you conveniently skirt the history of salvation in preference for a sloppy attack based on a paragraph in a catechism, some shallow finagling of terminology, and oodles of biased speculation.

On several occasions you have asked for and been given an explanation for the teaching and its importance. You dismiss the explanation and refuse to discuss the matter any further.

Why ?