Speak lovingly of Mary

CaliforniaJosiah · Oct 15, 2008

Thekla said:
you say "she might have had sex". This is not an affront to Christ and His mother ? Think about it.

Let me try yet again.
I have no position on how often Mary had sex.
I have no dogma.
I have no doctrine.
I have no official teaching.
NO Protestant denomination does.

I have no pious opinion.
I don't even have a pure spectulation.
I'm not teaching ANYTHING about how often Mary had sex.
This seems to completely allude you. For over 190 pages of posts.
I would be glad to try to clarify it for you, but I'm quite at a loss to know what part of it is not understood by you.

NO Protestant denomination known to me has a dogma or doctrine that Mary has sex once.
Or twice.
Or thrice.
Or 50 times.
Or 500 times.
Or 5000 times.
Or at all.
With Joseph
Or with anyone else.

We have no position to substantiate here for one reason that entirely eludes you - for over 190 pages of posts. WE DON'T HAVE A POSITION. We're not the "opposite" of any position because we don't have ANY official position. Is there something about this that, after all these pages of posts, STILL eludes you?

You do.
Mary Had No Sex EVER.
It's DOCTRINE in the EO.
It's DOGMA in the RCC.
You DO have a position.
A very precise one.
A very high level one.
It's entirely about Mary.
It's entirely about sexual intercourse.
It's that this one person never had intercourse.

Since you have the position, you have the "burden of proof."
I don't dispute that it's POSSIBLE ("With God ALL THINGS are possible" Luke 1:37) That doesn't make it true, much less doctrine or dogma.
I don't dispute that those spreading it say its true (that's common with rumors, which remain such UNTIL they are SUBSTANTIATED).

As you keep pointing out, Christ is silent on this issue. So are 29,998 of the 30,000 denomination.
As you keep pointing out, the Bible is silent on this issue. So are 29,998 of the 30,000 denomination.
TWO have a position.
TWO have very strong, precise, bold confessions (unlike Christ, the Bible and 29,998 denominations)
TWO teach on this.
TWO proclaim heresies about this.

Those two are held eternally responsible for any misinformation, hurt, pain, embarrassment all this causes to Our Lady and Her Son. Those like Christ and the Bible who don't, aren't.

.

Thekla · Oct 15, 2008

CaliforniaJosiah said:
Thekla said:

Let me try again....

Click to expand...

Virginity is a definite and definable physical state.

No position on a definite state means either state is possible.

Your position is therefore that she might have had sex outside of marriage.

Philothei · Oct 15, 2008

You have zero evidence that Christ, Mary, Joseph, or any Apostle EVER taught that Mary Had No Sex EVER or gave you permission to tell anyone that she never did. That is the issue you've brought up several times now, but you seem to not read what you yourself post.

Click to expand...

Neither do you have any ..... Where is your permision for condemening us??? Did Christ gave you permission or set you as His lawyer to sit here and argue about NOT calling her or not EV?

Again, I'm NOT dogmatically insisting (or even purely and personally speculating as a matter of fallible, nonbinding theory) that Mary had sex never or once or twice or thrice or 50 times or 500 times or 5000 times or 50000 times - with Joseph or anyone else. You CONTINUE to TRY to reverse the positions, rebuking me for saying things about Mary's sex life when I'm not, YOU ARE. I wonder if this will ever dawn on you....

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How is this "relevant" to you Policing what is said about Mary....Shall we establish inquisition booths for people who speak about her private life to that matter????

Even put them on trial for believing one or the other about her??? How dare we teach incarnation then...that should be her "own private business" ...right???

No, it's not.

It's DOGMA in the RCC.
It's DOCTRINE in the EO.

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I have my opinion you have yours... dogma or not... rumor or not... It does not say in the BIble we cannot have opinions, dogma, or doctrine about the EV. So you are sitting here as a judge to all...WOW....

I fall to my knees for your glorious wisdom

I agree.

I don't have an opinion.
YOU do.
Christ's opinion is sacred, and as you keep pointing how, Christ's stated opinion on how often Mary had sex is exactly the same as mine.
You, however, are different.

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HOWso? We talk about Christ being a celibant... Is that an opinion? Do we talk about it to our children? Yes. Do we talk about the Genesis story to our kids? There is sexual language about the procreation ....or we should not say a thing since it is prying into Adam's and Eve bedchamber? .... Mary's virginity is in the Bible nothing bad either... She was a virgin and that is a wonderful example for our teens....

YOU need to be 100% absolutely CERTAIN that what you are obessively insisting about His Mother is absolute Truth - becuase you are responsable for what you say (remember the Commandment: Thou shalt not bear false witness"?) IF I said that your mother was a prostitute, would you care? Would it matter to you why I"m saying this, how I know it to be true? Probably not....

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That is a straw man because":

1. my mom has nothing to do with incarnation you are quoque here..
2. That commandment cannot apply to me as bearing false witness have to be proven on some evidence and we have non... in the EV.
That to work we would have the Apostles or Christ telling us that Mary had relations with Joseph and we (despite that confession ) would have spread false witness that is not the case... here as the same can apply for the opposite.

I don't NEED to "care" if Christ is offended by my position regarding how often His Mother had sex. My official position is the same as His - none. YOU, on the other hand, are held eternally responsible for any hurt, pain, embarrassment, offense or anger your obsessive insistance about how often she had had sex (or not) has caused Her and thus to Her Son.

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wow.....fire and brimstone is falling on my head.....An umbrella please quick....lol....

You need to care for what you say since all this judgment is falling also on your head... As you are commanded not to judge your brother and sister...

All these miracles and manifestations of Theotokos show that the RC, EO and OO have been condemned by her and Christ....huh ah.... sure CJ try to figure that out... Miracles of her presence everywhere in my Church.

I wonder how many Catholics and Orthodox even consider that. Read the 195 pages of posts in this thread and you'll have your answer to that question. But your point is valid: It doesn't apply to those of us in the 29,998 denominations that have no dogma or doctrine about how often His Mother has sex.

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ah... and no presence of The Ever Virgin Mary in your church that makes sense actually since those of the denominations that they do not teach about her do not actually honor her... Pity that you miss the whole poin in this......

Christ never said that He would not visit the Americas and found His Church here, so by your rubric, that definately means He doesn't mind people saying that. Even proclaiming it as Dogma. And He must not mind people saying that Mary had several more kids (James, Joseph, Simon and Jude among them) since millions do, Christ didn't say if these were brothers via Mary and so He definately doesn't mine people saying that they are (even though such is purely personal opinion in stark contrast to the DOCTRINE of the EO or DOGMA of the CC). Your rubric is absurd and works against you.

Christ never said that YOUR life is "private" and we should leave it alone.
So, tell us, how often do YOU have sex? What positions do you use? How does all that work for you? And, of course, since Christ didn't say otherwise, the whole world can absolutely obsess over this and insist that it is a matter of highest importance for all the world to know and if any denies it, they are a heretic and their salvation is in question. Christ never stated that YOUR life is private, so, hey, who needs to hear it from you? I'll just say that you have sex with your spouse typically 5 times per week, you do it in the living room while watching adult films and you video tape the whole thing. According to YOU, I have Christ's permission to think this and tell the whole world as a matter of highest importance because, as you note, Christ never said that your life is "private." I understand your position.

.[/quote]

CaliforniaJosiah · Oct 15, 2008

Thekla said:
So, CaliforniaJosiah,
1. By taking "no position", you impugn Mary, one you claim to love more than your own mother.

1. Then I impugn you, my mother, my sister and all other women on the planet because I have NO dogma or doctrine or even a fallible personal opinion about how often they have sex or anything else about their sex life. Are you hurt and embarrassed that I do NOT insist on telling the whole world how often you and your spouse have sex? Might you be if I did.

2. You stressed that Christ was silent on this issue. I think you just condemned Christ. You might want to think about that.

2. You say its rude to discuss your mother's sex life, but you inquire about mine. Obviously, you have a double standard. You believe its ok to be rude sometimes.

Think about that. Just stop, read what you posted, and think about that.

I NEVER said it was rude to talk about someone's sex life. YOU DID. But for nearly 200 pages of posts, you have been pointing out that Christ is silent on how often Mary had sex. The Bible is silent on how often Mary had sex. 29,998 denominations out of 30,000 are silent on how often Mary had sex - but you argue that Christ, the Bible and I are "impugning" Our Lady by NOT dogmatically obsessively talking about it. Friend, IF you think it "rude" to talk about a mother's sex life, then why have you been defending for nearly 200 pages that it is supremely LOVING and RESPECTFUL to do so? Again, YOU are the one with the position here.

3. You give us the definition of virgin as "no sex ever", and say we should not discuss the sex life of others. You impugn the use of the word "virgin" in the Bible.

No. I have no position on whether Mary was a perpetual virgin or not.
YOU are the one with the position. As DOCTRINE.

YOU are the one saying that it's rude to talk about the sex life of one's mother, YOU are the one who has chosen (for reasons you won't reveal) why you are not telling all of us how often you and your spouse have sex or how often your mother does/did BUT insist to the very highest level of importance how often Jesus' mother did - and you are absolutely, eternally, 100% certain that She and Her Son are above all honored and feel distinctively LOVED because you do tell that. Your rubric of perpetually TRYING to turn the tables and rebuke me for YOUR position just isn't working.

4. You resort to changing definitions at will

No. I've consistently stated that "perpetual" means forever, always. And "virgin" means one who has never had intercourse. At times, a Catholic or Orthodox in this thread attempted, for a post or two, to redefine these words but they quickly abandoned that position since, of course, it weakens their position.

.

Rick Otto · Oct 15, 2008

Where is your permision for condemening us???

Click to expand...

Take a chill pill, Phil. No one is condemning anyone.
We are talking about the issue, that's all.

Thekla · Oct 15, 2008

CaliforniaJosiah said:
CaliforniaJosiah said:

1. Then I impugn you, my mother, my sister and all other women on the planet because I have NO dogma or doctrine or even a fallible personal opinion about how often they have sex or anything else about their sex life. Are you hurt and embarrassed that I do NOT insist on telling the whole world how often you and your spouse have sex? Might you be if I did.

Click to expand...

There is no evidence that Mary was married.
You have no position on whether or not she remained a virgin.
Implicit in your position is the possibility that she might have had sex outside of marriage.

2. You stressed that Christ was silent on this issue. I think you just condemned Christ. You might want to think about that.

Click to expand...

Please cite the post where I state that.

Think about that. Just stop, read what you posted, and think about that.

I NEVER said it was rude to talk about someone's sex life.

Click to expand...

Then, per your standard, its not a problem to state that Mary was ever-virgin. Ok

YOU DID. But for nearly 200 pages of posts, you have been pointing out that Christ is silent on how often Mary had sex.

Click to expand...

Citation from post, please.

The Bible is silent on how often Mary had sex. 29,998 denominations out of 30,000 are silent on how often Mary had sex - but you argue that Christ, the Bible and I are "impugning" Our Lady by NOT dogmatically obsessively talking about it. Friend, IF you think it "rude" to talk about a mother's sex life, then why have you been defending for nearly 200 pages that it is supremely LOVING and RESPECTFUL to do so? Again, YOU are the one with the position here.

Click to expand...

Ah, so you maintain its ok to talk about your mothers sex life - which you often do. Sorry, I misunderstood you.

No. I have no position on whether Mary was a perpetual virgin or not.
YOU are the one with the position. As DOCTRINE.

Click to expand...

You have the position that she might have engaged in illicit sex.

YOU are the one saying that it's rude to talk about the sex life of one's mother, YOU are the one who has chosen (for reasons you won't reveal) why you are not telling all of us how often you and your spouse have sex or how often your mother does/did BUT insist to the very highest level of importance how often Jesus' mother did - and you are absolutely, eternally, 100% certain that She and Her Son are above all honored and feel distinctively LOVED because you do tell that. Your rubric of perpetually TRYING to turn the tables and rebuke me for YOUR position just isn't working.

Click to expand...

I told you, my memory is not that good

No. I've consistently stated that "perpetual" means forever, always. And "virgin" means one who has never had intercourse. At times, a Catholic or Orthodox in this thread attempted, for a post or two, to redefine these words but they quickly abandoned that position since, of course, it weakens their position.

Click to expand...

You can't seem to keep straight: tradition, dogma, doctrine, kerygma.
I guess I came to see your pattern in other words - sorry.

Rick Otto · Oct 15, 2008

Then, per your standard, its not a problem to state that Mary was ever-virgin. Ok

Except that his standard on THIS ISSUE prohibits rumor.
What scripture is & that scripture isn't rumor is much easier to determine from scripture than Mary's PV.

Philothei · Oct 15, 2008

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48986528&postcount=1786

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48971117&postcount=1756

CJ in those posts you say that Mary and Joseph were a couple...and Joseph was Mary's husband so.... please do not deny it... Admit you did and you were caught for it... Honesty is a great asset in debate.

Thekla · Oct 15, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Except that his standard on THIS ISSUE prohibits rumor.
That scripture isn't rumor is much easier to determine from scripture than Mary's PV.

Then prove that the writings of the NT are the same as the 1st century originals.
Find the Biblical passage that states this re: rumor.
Prove that the PV is a rumor.

CaliforniaJosiah · Oct 15, 2008

Philothei said:
Where is your permision for condemening us???

ALL of the condemning is from the RCC and EO.
ALL of the teaching is from the RCC and EO.
The ONLY ones insisting that Mary had no sex ever is the RCC and EO.
Like Christ, the Bible and 29,998 denominations, I have no position, no teaching and condemn no one on this.
YOU do.

YOU are the one eternally, personally responsible for any hurt, pain, embarrassment the obsessive insistence about and spreading throughout all the world about how often Mary has sex (or not), YOU are the one who MUST be absolutely, 100%, completely CERTAIN that Mary and Her Son are above all HONORED and LOVED by this dogma and doctrine, this insisting teaching and your condemnation of those who don't join in such. YOU are the one who MUST be absolutely, eternally CERTAIN (because you are eternally responsible) that Mary feels the exact opposite as you do about the whole world knowing about your sex practices (or lack thereof).

How is this "relevant" to you Policing what is said about Mary....

Only TWO denominations (out of the 30,000 Catholic insist exist) "police" this. The RCC and EO. They are the only ones with official teachings on this, they are the only ones obessed about this, they are the only ones telling the world about this, they are the only ones who have ever condemned anyone about this.

I have my opinion you have yours

No, I don't.

No, you don't either. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is NOT "opinion" in either the RCC or EO. It's official, binding dogma (RCC) and doctrine (EO).

As you are commanded not to judge your brother and sister...

I don't. But if I were still Catholic and if I denied the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, it would judge me a heretic, and as my priest pointed out, "Heaven is not populated by heretics."

Of course, you ARE personally and eternally responsible for any lies told about and any hurt, pain, embarrassment you MIGHT cause to Our Lady and Her Son. You have a very strong, very precise, very bold doctrine here - that Mary Had No Sex EVER. You will be held responsible for what you state and spread about her. Just as you would be if you said that my sister has sex twice per week, only I wonder (that's all) even more so since this is Our Lady that we're talking about. But, you're right. 29,998 denominations are standing with Christ and the Bible here: we're silent.

Josiah said:
Josiah said:

Christ never said that He would not visit the Americas and found His Church here, so by your rubric, that definately means He doesn't mind people saying that. Even proclaiming it as Dogma. And He must not mind people saying that Mary had several more kids (James, Joseph, Simon and Jude among them) since millions do, Christ didn't say if these were brothers via Mary and so He definately doesn't mine people saying that they are (even though such is purely personal opinion in stark contrast to the DOCTRINE of the EO or DOGMA of the CC). Your rubric is absurd and works against you.

Christ never said that YOUR life is "private" and we should leave it alone.
So, tell us, how often do YOU have sex? What positions do you use? How does all that work for you? And, of course, since Christ didn't say otherwise, the whole world can absolutely obsess over this and insist that it is a matter of highest importance for all the world to know and if any denies it, they are a heretic and their salvation is in question. Christ never stated that YOUR life is private, so, hey, who needs to hear it from you? I'll just say that you have sex with your spouse typically 5 times per week, you do it in the living room while watching adult films and you video tape the whole thing. According to YOU, I have Christ's permission to think this and tell the whole world as a matter of highest importance because, as you note, Christ never said that your life is "private." I understand your position.

.

Click to expand...

...

.

CaliforniaJosiah · Oct 15, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Take a chill pill, Phil. No one is condemning anyone.

Wrong.

To deny a dogma is to be a heretic.

.

narnia59 · Oct 15, 2008

CaliforniaJosiah said:
2. You seem to be forgetting AGAIN that of the 30,000 denominations Catholics insist exist 29,998 have no dogma, doctrine or even an official opinion on how often Mary had sex. Only two denominations have an official view on this - and neither of them have a THING to do with what is POSSIBLE. They both state that Mary was a perpetual virgin. One has dogma and as I understand it, the other as doctrine. The "ball" so to speak is in YOUR court - not in the court of the other 29,998.

.

If you're going to keep spouting this, let's put some appropriate context around it please. First of all, the 30,000 number is not a 'Catholic' number, it is from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity out of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, a distinctly non-Catholic organization.

What many do not realize (without investing hundreds of dollars to own their comprehensive database and/or encyclopedia) is that they report denominations individually by country. So they basically count about 228 Roman Catholic denominations, because the Catholic church is present in all of them.

Most denomations are not present in all countries though, and many countries only have a handful. So the exact number of Protestant denominations without all of the precise data is not easy to come by, but it certainly numbers over a thousand. While the 30,000 number is not an accurate reflection, it is easy to come by because they publish that statistic in that form, and without actually digging through the data one may not realize what that represents.

In any case, the best one can point to in disputing the use of the number by Catholic apologists is that a thousand or so is much less fragmented that 30,000, and I'm not sure that's much of a statement at all.

The other fact you're ignoring in your repeated (2 out of 30,000) is that Christianity is generally viewed as having 3 main branches -- Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism. Wiki currently breaks it into 5 -- Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and Reformists. Therefore, 2 out of the 3 main branches of Christianity believe the ever-virgin doctrine, or 3 out of 5, which places it squarely in the majority, which seems to contradict the point you are poorly attempting to make.

And since I am assured by Protestants that they agree on the 'essentials', it should not be an issue to view Protestantism as a cohesive major branch of Christianity in terms of the discussion. However, since no one has ever been able to produce for me a list of these essentials to which all factions have assented their agreement, I'm more inclined to believe the presence of such agreement on essentials is an unsubstantiated rumor.

Philothei · Oct 15, 2008

Originally Posted by Philothei

Where is your permision for condemening us???

ALL of the condemning is from the RCC and EO.
ALL of the teaching is from the RCC and EO.
The ONLY ones insisting that Mary had no sex ever is the RCC and EO.
Like Christ, the Bible and 29,998 denominations, I have no position, no teaching and condemn no one on this.
YOU do.

YOU are the one eternally, personally responsible for any hurt, pain, embarrassment the obsessive insistence about and spreading throughout all the world about how often Mary has sex (or not), YOU are the one who MUST be absolutely, 100%, completely CERTAIN that Mary and Her Son are above all HONORED and LOVED by this dogma and doctrine, this insisting teaching and your condemnation of those who don't join in such. YOU are the one who MUST be absolutely, eternally CERTAIN (because you are eternally responsible) that Mary feels the exact opposite as you do about the whole world knowing about your sex practices (or lack thereof).

no I do not. I have not seen anyone knocking at your door to burn you alive because of it....
Anyways you quoque at that point too.. and do not want to deal with...your condemnation but you point back the finger at us... So....like saying that gives you the right to condemn us too....How typical though of Protestant theology to "hit back" on Catholicism....saying you "did it first" so ....we have a right also to slam you.... How more Christian that is???? So...you justify your actions by saying that we are no different.....How is this helping you not be judgmental??? and throwing stones to others??? Is that Christ like???

You still have not answer me of how Theotokos has been a miraculous presence in all EO RC AND OO while never "visits" any Protestant Church.... hmmm....still wonder if Christ is mad at us and also Theotokos....how come so many miracles reported from our Churches.... and non if any in your Church....

Philothei · Oct 15, 2008

Only TWO denominations (out of the 30,000 Catholic insist exist) "police" this. The RCC and EO. They are the only ones with official teachings on this, they are the only ones obessed about this, they are the only ones telling the world about this, they are the only ones who have ever condemned anyone about this.

I have never seen anyone in my church "interogating" about the EV of Theotokos....on the contrary I have seen many faithful respecting that dogma....FYII

CaliforniaJosiah · Oct 15, 2008

Thekla said:
Ah, so you maintain its ok to talk about your mothers sex life - which you often do.

Where did I say anything about my mother's sex life? Where did I state that it is a matter of highest importance for all t he world to know how often my mother has sex and to deny this is to be a heretic and thereby one's salvation is in question?

YOU are the one insisting on the sex life of Mary.
Not me.
Not Christ.
Not the Bible.
Not 29,998 of the world's 30,000 denominations (according to Catholics)

YOU are the one insisting that it is NOT rude to tell the whole world how often someone has had sex. And yet YOU seem very relunctant to tell us how often you have sex, YOU haven't indicated that all of us telling all the world's 6.5 billion people about this is a matter of highest importance and if any denies such they are a heretic, YOU haven't indicated that you absolutely would NOT regard it as rude or moot or an invasion of privacy but rather you'd regard it as a matter of supreme importance, respect and love if we told everyone this information. Interesting....

You have the position that she might have engaged in illicit sex.

You aren't reading what I'm posting.....

YOU are the one with the teaching here, and it's DOCTRINE.
YOU are the one teaching about Her sex life.
YOU are the one condemning others.
YOU are the one eternally and personally responsible for this doctrine about how often she had sex.

As you pointed out, I'm with Christ and the Bible. I have no position.
On how often Mary had sex, or how often you have sex.

.

Rick Otto · Oct 15, 2008

quote=Thekla; Then prove that the writings of the NT are the same as the 1st century originals.

Why bother? My concern priority is the veracity of the the information conveyed, not the pedigree of the source. The information conveyed reV is nor referred to as fact in any source, only that it was believed & the reasons why are all speculation & inference. It is an obsession with her plumbing that necessarily detracts from her per spiritual character which was proven by the character of her response to God, not her physical state.

Find the Biblical passage that states this re: rumor.

States what?

Prove that the PV is a rumor.

All the information about it is speculative, not factual. If scripture anywhere stated that Mary's perpetual virginity was a fact, I'd roll with it but her virginity as fact is only confirmed by scripture regarding the birth of Jesus.
Thus, PV= Rumor.
(bowing to applause)

MamaZ · Oct 15, 2008

well since the marriage bed is undefiled meaning it is Holy..I would suggest that Joseph and Mary's wedding bed was also Holy.. In fact Marriage is meant for those who are not gifted to be single is to keep men and woman Holy.

Thekla · Oct 15, 2008

CaliforniaJosiah said:
CaliforniaJosiah said:

Where did I say anything about my mother's sex life?

Click to expand...

its like virgin - talking about not talking about how often your mother has sex is still talking about your mother's sex life

YOU are the one insisting on the sex life of Mary.
Not me.
Not Christ.
Not the Bible.
Not 29,998 of the world's 30,000 denominations (according to Catholics)

Click to expand...

Yes, we call her ever-virgin.
Your'e the one suggesting she may have engaged in illicit sex (but you'll cover yourself by not stating it and hide under "no position")

YOU are the one insisting that it is NOT rude to tell the whole world how often someone has had sex. And yet YOU seem very relunctant to tell us how often you have sex, YOU haven't indicated that all of us telling all the world's 6.5 billion people about this is a matter of highest importance and if any denies such they are a heretic, YOU haven't indicated that you absolutely would NOT regard it as rude or moot or an invasion of privacy but rather you'd regard it as a matter of supreme importance, respect and love if we told everyone this information. Interesting....

Click to expand...

6.5 billion [sic] family members ... its the outsiders who claimed she engaged in illicit sex

You aren't reading what I'm posting.....

YOU are the one with the teaching here, and it's DOCTRINE.
YOU are the one teaching about Her sex life.
YOU are the one condemning others.
YOU are the one eternally and personally responsible for this doctrine about how often she had sex.

As you pointed out, I'm with Christ and the Bible. I have no position.
On how often Mary had sex, or how often you have sex.

Click to expand...

NO POSITION ON HER EVER-VIRGINITY IS THE SAME AS SAYING SHE MIGHT HAVE ENGAGED IN ILLICIT SEX.

Philothei · Oct 15, 2008

I don't. But if I were still Catholic and if I denied the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, it would judge me a heretic, and as my priest pointed out, "Heaven is not populated by heretics."

Of course, you ARE personally and eternally responsible for any lies told about and any hurt, pain, embarrassment you MIGHT cause to Our Lady and Her Son. You have a very strong, very precise, very bold doctrine here - that Mary Had No Sex EVER. You will be held responsible for what you state and spread about her. Just as you would be if you said that my sister has sex twice per week, only I wonder (that's all) even more so since this is Our Lady that we're talking about. But, you're right. 29,998 denominations are standing with Christ and the Bible here: we're silent.

Click to expand...

So....how this gives you the right to say that you go around "condemning" the RC and EO and OO as wrong and you have a right to do so .....that is pointing finger to them...for calling you a heretic...Are you to forgive your brother if you think they are wrong and have done wrong doing to you and go your way??? Where in the Bible it says it is okay to retaliate??? To talk evil of someone who you condemns you especially in matters of faith? Just because we believe differently and we do have certain dogmas that does not give any outsider of th efaith to come in and "condemn us" of not accepting their heresy...The kerygma of Christ have to be safegurded.... Rediculing someone because you feel that he "discriminates" about you has no place in the Church... only in secular matters... Dogma has to do with eternal truths no "feelings" of personal opinions.

CaliforniaJosiah · Oct 15, 2008

Philothei said:
So....how this gives you the right to say that you go around "condemning" the RC and EO and OO as wrong

Let me try yet again.
I'm NOT saying ANYONE is right or wrong about how often Mary had sex.
YOU are.

I have no position on how often Mary had sex.
I have no dogma.
I have no doctrine.
I have no official teaching.
NO Protestant denomination known to me does.

I have no pious opinion.
I don't even have a pure spectulation.
This seems to completely allude you. For nearly 200 pages of posts.
I would be glad to try to clarify it for you, but I'm quite at a loss to know what part of it is not understood by you.

NO Protestant denomination known to me has a dogma or doctrine that Mary has had sex once.
Or twice.
Or thrice.
Or 50 times.
Or 500 times.
Or 5000 times.
Or 50000 times.
Or at all.
With Joseph
Or with anyone else.

We have no position to substantiate here for one reason that entirely eludes you - for over 190 pages of posts. WE DON'T HAVE A POSITION. We're not the "opposite" of any position because we don't have ANY official position. Is there something about this that, after all these pages of posts, STILL eludes you?

You do.
You insist that Mary Had No Sex EVER.
It's DOCTRINE in the EO.
It's DOGMA in the RCC.
You DO have a position.
A very precise one.
A very high level one.
It's entirely about Mary.
It's entirely about sexual intercourse.
It's that this one person never had intercourse.

Since you have the position, you have the "burden of proof."

And to the issue of this thread, you are the one that needs to show that it is distinctively LOVING to tell the whole world how often a person has sex (or not).

You insist that it is not "rude" to tell about Jesus' mother's sex life (even though it seems so for every other mother), that it is critically important for all the world to know how often Mary had sex (if at all) and this is supremely and distinctively respectful and loving to her, and yet you have yet to tell us all how often you have sex and that you regard it as supremely and distinctively respectful and loving to you if we tell the whole world.

As you noted, I'm with Christ and the Bible on this: Silent.
Two are not: The RCC and EO.
And yes, each person who spread this is eternally and personally responsible. NOT to me, not to any denomination, but to God.

we do have certain dogmas that does not give any outsider of th efaith to come in and "condemn us" of not accepting their heresy...

AGAIN, as you pointed out with Christ and the Bible, I have no position.
I "condemned" no one.
That's what the RCC does in proclaiming those that deny such a "heretic" whose salvation thereby is questioned. I have condemned NO ONE on this topic. I have specifically stated that I regard NO ONE a "heretic" on this topic.

But it's ironic you'd state this. The RCC was condemning, anathematizing, proclaiming people heretics and dispatching them to the afterlife ahead of schedule smelling like smoke for denying it's "dogma" LONG before any Protestant denomination was founded, here again, you seem to have the positions reversed.

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