Speak lovingly of Mary

[Philothei]

Well, this Greek would not assume that as it is all over the Bible and means also Breathren. Also it is well known that Jesus had no brothers and sisters so .... not a chance not ONE Greek would say that....

lol..... fooling who? She is already called "unweded bride' as she is EV in our tradition. what? a piece of paper tells us if someone was "actually" virgin in marriage or not??

It does not... and you cannot prove it. We can since we have "martyria" from our worshiping Service of St. James starting as early as 1st century AD...

 

[Rick Otto]

"unwedded bride"
I gotta love that creative use of language. Let me try...
unmoistened water
unwarmed fire
unblown breeze
I think I'm gettin' the hang of this.

I think this may be the case - as the marriage ceremony was not always public, Mary's pregnancy with Christ following her betrothal with Joseph could have been considered "evidence" of a marriage having occured.

!!!You agreed with me too easily. You must be avoiding dishes or inventory or something!!!

 

[Thekla]

"unwedded bride"
I gotta love that creative use of language. Let me try...
unmoistened water
unwarmed fire
unblown breeze
I think I'm gettin' the hang of this.

paradox
like "seedless conception"

!!!You agreed with me too easily. You must be avoiding dishes or inventory or something!!!

no
I think thats a reasonable point !
It fits with the culture, Jewish Law, and doesn't defy what is written (based on scripture, we're left with vague terminology)

(I'm ALWAYS doing dishes etc between posts: 5 kids at home, no dishwasher; when am I not doing dishes )

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

"unwedded bride"
I gotta love that creative use of language. Let me try...
unmoistened water
unwarmed fire
unblown breeze
I think I'm gettin' the hang of this.


!!!You agreed with me too easily. You must be avoiding dishes or inventory or something!!!

How about this one: "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary has nothing to do with Mary, perpetual or being a virgin."

Or how about THIS one: "It's rude and vulgar to talk about one's sex life! Mary never once had sexual intercourse - it's a matter of highest importance, to deny it is to be a heretic, and it is the most loving thing about a person to talk about!"





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[Thekla]

or a bush that burned but was not consumed

 

[Philothei]

How about this one: "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary has nothing to do with Mary, perpetual or being a virgin."

Or how about THIS one: "It's rude and vulgar to talk about one's sex life! Mary never once had sexual intercourse - it's a matter of highest importance, to deny it is to be a heretic, and it is the most loving thing about a person to talk about!"

hmmmmmmm........
I have not seen in a hymn but this I have seen:
The hymns do not go to "specifics" as they do reverent Thetokos...

here:


that could easily classify as 'speaking lovingly of Theotokos"

<B>

"O never failing protectress of Christians and their ever-present intercessor before the Creator; despise not the petitions or sinners who have recourse to you, by your goodness extend your help to us to call upon you with confidence. Has O Theotokos, to intercede for us, O who have always protected those who honor you."
​

​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4d3BeEY45M&feature=related
​

</B>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BXIXTpz4oU&eurl=http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu9hpEf5I0JYAXHZXNyoA?fr2=sg-gac&sado=1&p=axion%20esti%20of%20The

Not in every hymn to her we call her Ever Virgin either CJ....

But traditionally the hymn to her during liturgy is this one:

<B><B>

&#8220;It is truly right to bless you, O Theotokos, ever blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos we magnify you.&#8221;
​

</B>


Enjoy
​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Enjoy

Hebrews 9:16 For the-where a covenant/testament, a death necessity to be bringing of covenanted-one/testator
17 For a covenant/testament upon dead-ones is confirmed since not then is strenghth when is living the convenanted-one/testator.

Reve 1:18 and the living-one! And I became dead and behold! living am-I into the ages to-the ages Amen. And I am having the Keys of the death and of the hades.

 

[Rick Otto]

What baffles me is if she can be concieved immaculately, give birth virginaly, why can't she consumate her marriage & still be virgin?
She could live the married life & still only be betrothed.
She could sin & not be a sinner.
With God, the ridiculous is possible.

 

[Philothei]

I would agree with all else but no..... There are no shortcuts when it comes to God. God did make her a "virgin" after her birth and that is why in the tradition she is called "spotless" but she had a say and she did remain without a sin out of choice....God cannot "overide" our free will or we are not made in His image and likness. Fathers though testify to a "normal birth" like any other woman.

this site explains it perfectly....

http://www.ninesaintsethiopianorthodoxmonastery.org/id26.html


Glad you enjoyed it LLOJ I chant it every Sunday Although the tones change and my byzantine music knowledge is somehow restricted.... Our choir though uses only one tone every Sunday....

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What baffles me is if she can be concieved immaculately, give birth virginaly, why can't she consumate her marriage & still be virgin?
She could live the married life & still only be betrothed.
She could sin & not be a sinner.
With God, the ridiculous is possible.

What "baffles" me...


1. Why is it "rude and vulgar" to talk (even purely as personal theory) about the sex life and how often a couple has sex (if at all), but it's DOGMA (talk of the loudest, clearest and most importance) that Mary had no sex ever? Isn't that a contradiction, "double speak," a condemnation of one's own position? Why is it "vulgar and rude" if others do it but supremely, above all "loving and respectful" if they do it? If it's "vulgar and rude" to have a DOGMA about one's sex practices but those of us who have NO position at all - who suggest maybe it's no ones business and we should give this couple some respectful privacy - WE are the ones officially declared as being "vulgar and rude?" NO position about it is "vulgar" but having DOGMA about it is "supremely loving and above all respectful?"


2. Why does it matter how often a couple has sex, if at all? I'm sure it matters to the couple (well, I suppose it does), but why is it a matter of highest importance, critical to the entire Christian Gospel, all the world MUST know, to deny such is the be a heretic whose salvation is thereby in question?


3. Some suggest that the Dogma of "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary" is not about virginity or Mary or perpetual anything. So, it is their view that Mary DID have sex at least once? OR is it their view that the dogma doesn't say if she did or didn't have intercourse but leaves the issue entirely unaddressed and are silent on that issue (just as Her Son and God's Scripture do)? What baffles me is how can it NOT be about sex or Mary and yet it's obviously about sex and Mary?



4. Why do Catholics so very strongly want to talk about everything else except the dogma? They want to talk about if Jesus had siblings or not, if sex makes a woman sinful or not, if the Catholic Church has infallible and unaccountable authority or not, how old was Joseph, is the Protoevangelium of James an infallible and divinely inspired authority, if everything Jesus touched becomes a virgin, etc., etc., etc. Why not discuss the issue here: Mary being perpetually a virgin? It's NOT because they don't agree with it (they don't have that option) or are embarrassed by it or don't know what the dogma teaches. So, well..... Baffles, doesn't it? They don' t do with with other Marian dogmas, this this one.






.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Glad you enjoyed it LLOJ I chant it every Sunday Although the tones change and my byzantine music knowledge is somehow restricted.... Our choir though uses only one tone every Sunday....

Greetings. Protestants aren't too chinsy with choirs either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8REL2ys3-lY&feature=related

 

[Philothei]

Hey i would like that concert But to me this is a "performance"....I would be too busy paying attention to the band and sax....to pray really... too distracting for me ...


but hey would love to listen to it while working my laundry...(no offense LLOJ) I do not feel like this is worshiping ... But here is an Orthodox equivelant...

Concert in the Church.... during the Akathist.... But not distracting to me.... as much as the singer at your utube video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-IRQVmdGgY&feature=related

For some reason I do feel more prayfull with our Byz. choir... and focused...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

but hey would love to listen to it while working my laundry...(no offense LLOJ) I do not feel like this is worshiping ... But here is an Orthodox equivelant...

My wife likes the music more than I do and she is probably more spiritual than I........

Luke 5:37 "And no one is casting Young/neon <3501> Wine into Old skins, if yet no surely shall be ruined the Wine, the Young/neoV <3501>, of the skins, and it shall be being poured-out and its skin shall be perishing.
38 but Young/neon <3501> Wine into New/kainouV <2537> skins is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 and no one driking Old immediately is willing Young, for he is saying, 'for the the Old is kind/mellow'".

Hebrews 8:13 in the to be saying 'New/kainhn <2537>' He hath made Old the first. The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh of disappearance

 

[Chesterton]

With God, the ridiculous is possible.

With men, the possible is ridiculous.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

How about this one: "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary has nothing to do with Mary, perpetual or being a virgin."

Or how about THIS one: "It's rude and vulgar to talk about one's sex life! Mary never once had sexual intercourse - it's a matter of highest importance, to deny it is to be a heretic, and it is the most loving thing about a person to talk about!"


.

hmmmmmmm........
I have not seen in a hymn but this I have seen:


"O never failing protectress of Christians and their ever-present intercessor before the Creator; despise not the petitions or sinners who have recourse to you, by your goodness extend your help to us to call upon you with confidence. Has O Theotokos, to intercede for us, O who have always protected those who honor you."

Wonderful, but of course it has absolutely nohting to do with the Dogma of the Perpetual Virgin of Mary or whether it is "vulgar" or "distinctively loving" to talk about how often Mary had sex (if at all). Nor with what I posted.

Not in every hymn to her we call her Ever Virgin either CJ....

I never said you did.
Read what you quoted from me; reply to it if you so desire.





.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

why in the tradition she is called "spotless"

Perhaps you are confusing the RCC Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary (that Mary was "pure" "spotless" and void of "original sin") with the RCC Dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever? One is about Her being pure, the other about Her never having had sexual intercourse.




But back to the issue immediately at hand....
You quoted me as adding two additional issues that baffle about the RCC dogma of Mary Had No Sex EVER...

How about this one: "The Perpetual Virginity of Mary has nothing to do with Mary, perpetual or being a virgin."

Or how about THIS one: "It's rude and vulgar to talk about one's sex life! Mary never once had sexual intercourse - it's a matter of highest importance, to deny it is to be a heretic, and it is the most loving thing about a person to talk about!"

Did you want to respond to with what you quoted from me, the two things I added to the list of things Catholics insist that "baffle me?










.

 

[Philothei]

[/color][/color]


Wonderful, but of course it has absolutely nohting to do with the Dogma of the Perpetual Virgin of Mary or whether it is "vulgar" or "distinctively loving" to talk about how often Mary had sex (if at all). Nor with what I posted.






I never said you did.
Read what you quoted from me; reply to it if you so desire.





.

This is a thread about talking lovingly and I think it is within the realm of this issue to actually "present" of how lovingly we in the EO trad. we speak of her...thus my posts... I do not desire to have any further theological debate with you or anyone else as everything has been already stated.... here is the link you can find more information.... actually it was posted some posts prior to this....


show me in your tradtiion how you "honor" Theotokos? do you honor her with hymn of praise? I would be very interested to find out....

LLOJ did not exactly "praise" her of "spoke lovingly" as he posted a Christmas carol about Christ... That of course pin points to the incarnation so I can see how indirectly it relates somehow...

Posting hymns is a way of veneration and calling her blessed just like the Bible teaches us to do...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ did not exactly "praise" her of "spoke lovingly" as he posted a Christmas carol about Christ... That of course pin points to the incarnation so I can see how indirectly it relates somehow...

Posting hymns is a way of veneration and calling her blessed just like the Bible teaches us to do...

That was a Christmas carol Fooled me.......

Genesis 6:3 And YHWH is saying "not spirit of Me shall adjudicate in Adam for age-abiding, in which morever he flesh and they become days of him a hundred and twenty year".

Luke 3:6 And shall-be-seeing All flesh the Salvation of the God.'

Reve 13:18 Here the Wisdom is, the one having Mind let him calculate the number of the beast for of man it is and the number of it six hundred sixty six.

 

[Philothei]

Whilst praising your Offspring, we all praise you, O Theotokos, as a living temple; for the Lord, Who holds all things in His hand, dwelt in your womb, and He sanctified and glorified you, and taught all to cry to you:
Rejoice, Tabernacle of God the Word. Rejoice, Holy one, holier than the Holies.
Rejoice, Ark made golden by the Spirit. Rejoice, inexhaustible Treasury of Life.
Rejoice, precious Diadem of godly kings. Rejoice, venerable Boast of faithful priests.
Rejoice, unshakeable Tower of the Church. Rejoice, impregnable fortress of the Kingdom.
Rejoice, you through whom trophies are raised up. Rejoice, you whom enemies are cast down.
Rejoice, Healing of my flesh. Rejoice, Salvation of my soul.

Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride.​

Eikos 1 Repeated[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]The Archangel was sent from Heaven to cry: Rejoice! to the Theotokos. And beholding You, O Lord, taking bodily form, he stood in awe, and with his bodiless voice he cried aloud to her such things as these:[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]

Rejoice, you through whom joy shall shine. Rejoice, you the Redemption of the tears of Eve.
Rejoice, Height hard to climb for human thought. Rejoice, Depth hard to explore even for the eyes of Angels.
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King. Rejoice, for you sustained the Sustainer of all.
Rejoice, Star that causes the Sun to appear. Rejoice, Womb of the divine Incarnation.
Rejoice, you through whom creation is renewed. Rejoice, you whom the Creator is born a Babe.


[SIZE=+0]Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride[/SIZE]

A Prince of the Angels was sent from Heaven to say to the Theotokos, Rejoice! A Prince of the Angels was sent from Heaven to say to the Theotokos, Rejoice! A Prince of the Angels was sent to the Theotokos, Rejoice! And seeing Thee, O Lord, take bodily form at the sound of his bodiless voice, filled with amazement he stood still and cried aloud to Her:

Rejoice! For through thee joy shall shine forth:
Rejoice! For through thee the curse shall cease.
Rejoice! Recalling of fallen Adam:
Rejoice! Deliverance from the tears of Eve.
Rejoice! Height hard to climb for the thoughts of men:
Rejoice! Depth hard to scan even for the eyes of Angels.
Rejoice! For thou art the throne of the King:
Rejoice! For thou holdest Him Who upholds all.
Rejoice! Star causing the Sun to shine:
Rejoice! Womb of the Divine Incarnation.
Rejoice! For through thee the creation is made new:
Rejoice! For through thee the Creator becomes a newborn Child.
Rejoice! O Unwedded Bride!

Seeking to know what passes knowledge, the Virgin said to the ministering Angel: &#8220;From a maiden womb how can a son be born? Tell me.&#8221; And to her in fear he answered, crying:

Rejoice! Initiate of God&#8217;s secret counsel:
Rejoice! Faith in that which must be guarded by silence.
Rejoice! Beginning of Christ&#8217;s wonders:
Rejoice! Crown and fulfillment of His teachings.
Rejoice! Heavenly Ladder by which God came down:
Rejoice! Bridge leading men from earth to Heaven.
Rejoice! Marvel greatly renowned among the Angels:
Rejoice! Wound bitterly lamented by the demons.
Rejoice! For ineffably thou shalt bear the Light:
Rejoice! For thou hast reviled the Mystery to none.
Rejoice! Wisdom surpassing the knowledge of the wise:
Rejoice! Dawn that illumines the minds of the faithful.
Rejoice! O Unwedded Bride!

this is how we honor her ... and we laud to her

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

this is how we honor her ... and we laud to her

That is kewl.....I do not however, no offense......

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

Reve 12:7 And became a battle in the heaven, the Michael and the messengers of Him do battle with the dragon and the dragon battles and the messengers of him
8 and not he is strong, neither place was found of them still in the Heaven.