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“We have never even heard of the Holy Spirit”, which sounds very little different from what I hear from many cessationists of our day, though admittedly, they at least know that he is supposed to be a member of the Godhead.
It's not scripture its long commentaries that win no argument when the other party has chosen to disbelieve.Scripture does tend to have that effect on people at times.
Without spending too much time on this (I do get a bit bored sometimes, not your fault), as the 9 Manifestations cease when the Perfect arrives then that is that.
If I were to quote, two, five or a dozen or more then such information could hardly be used in a court of Law but when we have one of the Churches pre-eminent theologians telling us that he is more than welcomed within his world,
Keener's views regarding tongues have been confusing for me as he openly prays in tongues (just as the rest of us do)
I think that you need to maybe quietly sit down and look at the lexical material without desperately trying to find a word or two that you think suits your agenda; it’s one thing to misapply a word in a given paragraph or within a sentence, but you seem to look at words as if they are sitting on their own without any other words being present.
Again, you are trying to find a word or two in a paragraph so that you can make a commentator say what you want them to say; maybe you should consider Thiselton’s ‘However, here there is also a further hint of τέλειος as denoting a goal’.
Oh, ho-hum, other schoolboy errors would probably be that the earth is flat and the sun rises in the West. The idea that some have that they can pick and choose which ways the Holy Spirit will supposedly decide not to work in is really a bit of a desperate ploy, particularly when there is not even a hint of this being a possibly within the Scriptures; it really is a case of the have-nots trying to find a way to excuse why they lack certain aspects of the Holy Spirit's Ministry when the haves do.
As I’ve said, any argument that is primarily based on word gender is generally deemed to be poor form;
Are you asking ‘How can there be cessationists travelling through Corinth when it is only the third largest city in the Roman Empire, after that of Rome and Alexandria, where it is also the crossroads between the Western and Eastern portions of the Empire that would see who knows how many thousands of travelers passing through its walls each year – now I wonder!
Need I point out that it was not exactly possible to give new converts of Paul’s day a copy of the New Testament which had not as yet been written, which means that most new converts may have only heard a portion of the Gospel, for that matter, what was the reply the Ephesians give Paul when he asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit, “We have never even heard of the Holy Spirit”, which sounds very little different from what I hear from many cessationists of our day, though admittedly, they at least know that he is supposed to be a member of the Godhead.
Now you should be aware of how this passage is probably best translated as “Now you are eagerly desiring the higher graces".
As I said, I would encourage every inquisitive cessationist to read through the material by Thomas, just as many have done since he first wrote his book in 1978, where the arguments for his worldview were such an embarrassment to them that many decided to go along the pathway of do not ask, do not tell.
It's interesting that John MacArthur released a book titled "The Charismatics - A Doctrinal Perspective" in the same year, which he at least had the forsight to pull from the shelves as he undoubtedly received a lot of flack for his flaky arguments, this is something that Thomas should have done as well but at least he has demonstrated to many thoughtful cessationists that their worldview is indeed a sham that is built upon humanist presuppositions - which is why we now have the incredibly large portion of the Evangelical world who are neither cessationist or Continuist who are now a part of a third group of those who are 'Open-but-Cautious'.
I'm impressed that you were able to hang on with listening to those taps - how painful it must have been.
Last Christmas we were visiting some relatives in a regional city and I happened to come across a previously unheard of book by John MacArthur titled The Charismatics: A Doctrinal Perspective (1978) that I found in a second hand bookshop. As the book was completely unknown to me I was gobsmacked when I saw it and though I do not like paying too much for MacArthur's material, by the time we made it back home I figured that even though I had probably paid double what the book was worth that in the end $2 wasn't all that bad for one of his books.
Having read through his book I can understand why he probably pulled it off the shelves as MacArthur is not that good a tactician when it comes to combating the Full Gospel, which is why he has turned his attacks to slander and guilt by association. If I can find a legal way to reproduce his book in PDF format I would love to be able to post it so that cessationists can get a better idea of why their worldview is now little more than a relic; in my opinion when a prudent cessationist or quasi-cessationist is given the chance to read through what they are supposed to believe that it should be enough for them to discard their old worldview for a more Biblical understanding of the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Tell me, how exactly could there be cessationists in Corinth when none of the gifts had ceased at that time?
This is one of those posts that needs a 'Kermit the Frog' emoticon tag that would allow me to quietly display by 'green-with-envy' status; Baylor hey, not bad at all.Of Reformed/Calvinist writers, I like Packer and Sproul -- McArthur and Piper are a tad "too TULIP" for my blood...
I started studying Greek at a small Methodist University -- 900 students -- then transferred to Baylor, biggest Baptist college there is
When I talked to the Greek professor about whether I would be able to just come on in in the Fall to 3rd semester Greek, he asked "Whose textbook did you use there? Metzger? Machen?"
I said Machen, and he suggested I AUDIT his 1st two semesters in the summer, which was cheaper than real tuition and a really small class -- in the Fall - I was the lone Methodist among NINETY BAPTISTS!
I was called on to translate BAPTIZO every single time as we went through Mark, and Luke/Acts, as long as you got the tense correct, Professor didn't care if I translated it "having been sprinkelled" or whatever.
The other guys looked at me like I had HORNS ON !!
One time in class I felt water being sprinkled on my back, looked around to see the head Baptist ringleader and his cohorts dying laughing - from then on I had coffee at Student Union before class with the Baptists - I was accepted because I had been immersed at 19, though sprinkelled as a baby
I was able to grab MacArthur's Commentary on 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 awhile back and it was certainly no better than his previous attempt back in 1978; but of course, commentary by the likes of MacArthur and Thomas can certainly make you either laugh or cry.My husband and I listened to them together on a 4 hour trip. Even his mouth flew open a number of times at the outrageous fabrications. Go to a Christian bookstore sometime and pick up John MacArthur's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 and read it. That ridiculous heresy about the singular and plural tongue(s) came straight from Merrill Unger. Supposedly any time Paul used the singular form of "tongue" that was demonic tongues. And any time Paul used the plural form of "tongues" it was the real tongues from the Holy Spirit. The problem is when he got to a verse using the singular form of tongue (demonic) where we needed to limit them to 2 or 3 and they were to be interpreted, he did not make any comment at all (maybe we wouldn't be able to see his theory didn't make any sense!) ROFL!
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
Don't forget, the singular form is supposedly demonic.
I was able to grab MacArthur's Commentary on 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 awhile back and it was certainly no better than his previous attempt back in 1978; but of course, commentary by the likes of MacArthur and Thomas can certainly make you either laugh or cry.
How can there be Cessationists NOW?
WHEN NONE OF THE GIFTS HAVE CEASED?
Ceased...and then started up again...means that they can have ceased and did so.
The argument of continuationists is that they could never have ceased, even if we know that they did.
That is the answer that continuationists just about must offer in response to the historical evidence that they did stop.There was always a remnant, even through the dark ages with some of the saints, even as it does rain a bit during the summer.
Can you not see the comparison between a contemporary cessationist with those of Paul's day who he deemed to be 'ignorant' or 'uninitiated' into the things of the Spirit, they are both one and same creature.Tell me, how exactly could there be cessationists in Corinth when none of the gifts had ceased at that time? Cessationists believe that some of the gifts ceased at the end of the apostolic age, so how could there be cessationists during the apostolic age? Another schoolboy error.
So you checked "50 Bible translations" just as most newbies would do if they are unfamiliar with commentaries; it's too bad that you never considered looking into the footnotes of the various Bibles that you claimed to have checked - impressive, not!I checked over 50 bible translations to see how many of them translated charisma here as 'graces'. Not a single one. Every one translated it as 'gifts'. Looks like you are going to be busy again writing to all those translation committees to tell the Greek scholars they have all got their translation wrong. Or is this perhaps another case of all the bible versions conspiring together in another mass cessationist plot?
That is the answer that continuationists just about must offer in response to the historical evidence that they did stop.
I don't expect a continuationist to admit that tongues can cease or did cease; they have to come up with some explanation, even if it is based upon nothing, really.
But before we leave the point that Anto9us made--that if there are Pentecostals today that fact in itself must mean that tongues did not cease--let's be clear that this 'stop and restart' phenomenon, even if true, would not verify the claim that tongues did not cease. It just means that they had ceased during most of the history of the church but not absolutely all of it.
Your approach, which is the more common reply, would be the more credible one except that there is no evidence that the proverbial groups hiding out in some caves somewhere and speaking in tongues, unnoticed by the rest of society for over a thousand years, actually is true.
And the reports of this or that saint every so often, having spoken in tongues, even if true doesn't show us any continuation. That would be intermittent, not continual, just as with Anto9us' contention.
But not evidence of continuity. That's the big issue. Anyway, I covered this in my previous post.St. Francis of Assisi
St. Columba
St. Patrick
Martin Luther.
The Montanists
The Jansenists
Sparce, true, but evidence.
But not evidence of continuity. That's the big issue. Anyway, I covered this in my previous post.
As with the dark periods during the Old Testament, I tend to suspect that the Father has always kept a remnant of his people who would walk in the Spirit during the Dark Ages of the Church, though such people would have done so to their peril as Rome would have made sure that they paid with their lives.St. Francis of Assisi
St. Columba
St. Patrick
Martin Luther.
The Montanists
The Jansenists
Sparce, true, but evidence. And not unusual, as the love of many had grown cold.
No, but that is not the issue. You cannot argue that tongues never ceased...and then use as part of your argument that there weren't people worthy of receiving them. Either they ceased or they did not.Do you really believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are going to appear in those without the Spirit?
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