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Speak in Tongues - essential :

Ken Rank

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I am sorry, with great respect, I just reject the notion. God who knows all has to pray to Himself through us for the things we don't know we need? And a verse that uses the word 'sign' very clearly to denote Christ as a child and prophetic fulfillment is also really understood to be speaking about tongues but only recognized as such by those who speak in tongues... even though you aren't speaking in tongues, it is really God speaking through you to Himself?

A. God in't the author of confusion and I am lost
B. God is no respecter of persons

You have taken one "gift" and exalted it above others making it so that having the Spirit is = to this gift when the Scripture doesn't plainly state that. We shouldn't have to play connect the dots with so serious a thing.... to the Israelite God said concerning the Sabbath, "it is a sign between me and you." You have no verse making such a claim pertaining to tongues but act as if you do. That act, respectfully, does divide brethren because "you get" and "somebody else doesn't" and that makes them less than you and less in God's eyes.

You can have the last word... this wasn't a place for me to make the case against tongues but I think I will take the information I have accumulated over the last 20 years on this and lay it out in another thread. Blessings!
 
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1stcenturylady

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I have not exalted tongues above the other gifts. Isn't this OP about tongues? My favorite gift that God has given me is receiving his rhemas.
 
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Albion

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You DO have a point there, Ken, that deserves a serious and careful response from any of our Pentecostal friends. Lets see.
 
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ToBeLoved

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So if the gifts ended..so did the Gospel.
The devilish falsehood of cessationism just continues to show itself to be preposterous .
Now that makes sense. smh

I think if the gospel ended, Jesus would have told us that.
 
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Albion

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Nope he said Go heal the sick preach the gospel drive out devils etc
So if the gifts ended..so did the Gospel.
Now that makes sense. smh

Not really. What it tells us is that these gifts, which were routine or commonplace in the early church, existed in order to help spread the Gospel to the unbelieving world AND THAT when that objective was fulfilled and the church was established throughout the Roman world from Britain to Africa to the Middle east, they ceased except for rare instances. God gave them for a purpose and that purpose was accomplished.

The Gospel had not ceased; on the contrary, the Gospel had been planted and converts baptized throughout the known world...just as the Great Commission given by Christ to his Apostles had directed. Matthew 28:19
 
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Righttruth

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I see you still do not see that tongues spoken by someone by themselves edifies that person. And 1 Corinthians 14:2 is not interpreted as you do by anyone else, including God. It is twisting a scripture you do not want to believe.

That is a selfish satisfaction. Therefore, it cannot be considered as spiritual gift. You are twisting Paul's letter as pointed out by Peter(2 Peter 3:16)
 
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1stcenturylady

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That is a selfish satisfaction. Therefore, it cannot be considered as spiritual gift. You are twisting Paul's letter as pointed out by Peter(2 Peter 3:16)

That is like saying obeying Christ to receive eternal life is selfish. Forbid not to speak in tongues.
 
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Ken Rank

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One of the most repeated prophecies in the OT is the calling of Israel back out of the nations they were scattered into. Israel was scattered into the nations.... and messiah said, "I have not been sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Those in the nations... so what do we see at Pentecost? We see disciples speaking in languages from around the world, the languages of the nations... and people from those nations hearing in their native tongue. A miracle, but not unknown tongues or God speaking through you to Himself for things you don't even know you need.... but a clear indication that the call to Israel in the nations, the fulfillment of one of the most repeated prophecies in the bible, had begun.

That takes Acts 2 out of the conversation completely in regards to everyone speaking in unknown tongues.
 
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Biblicist

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My apologies for the late reply.
A good intro to my reply would be with Gordon D. Fee’s following remarks;
Gordon D. Fee God’s Empowering Presence, 1994 p.207
It is perhaps an indictment on Western Christianity that we should consider to be “mature” our rather totally cerebral and domesticated—but bland—brand of faith, with the concomitant absence of the Spirit in terms of his supernatural gifts! The Spirit, not Western rationalism, marks the turning of the ages, after all; and to deny the Spirit’s manifestations is to deny our present existence as eschatological, as belonging to the beginning of the time of the End.

When I first read this material, it was on a mobile phone, where having initially thought that I had misread paragraph [1] that oddly said that the New Testament is devoid of any mention of ‘perfection’ relating to the ‘perfect man’, I then scrolled down to see who would have said such a strange thing; when I realised that it was Thomas the remarks by Fee came to mind regarding a similar article that Thomas wrote in 1974 which can be found in the following spoiler in Fee’s 1 Corinthians on 13:10.

The question needs to be asked of Thomas as to where he has been when who knows how many of his compatriots have both pondered and struggled over Paul’s meaning in Matthew 5:48 with “Be perfect [teleios], therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect [teleios]”. Of course it could be that Thomas is content to believe that we will not be perfect when we are united with the Son in his heavenly Kingdom, which certainly stands against all of the orthodox doctrine that I am aware of on this subject; this is another reason why so many Evangelicals since around the time of Thomas’s book (1978) had become increasingly uncomfortable with the precepts that undergird the cessationist worldview.


As to his objections to the following three definitions as being unsuited as a translation for telion, he has again gone against not only the plain meaning of the passage but probably with 95-99% of scholarship on the meaning of the word.
  • being entirely without fault or defect
  • corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
  • the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state.
It seems that Thomas is obviously fully aware that Paul is talking about the Parousia but as he is also fully aware that the old understanding that Paul was supposedly speaking of either the death of the last Apostle-of-Christ, the writing of the last New Testament Book, or with the completion of the Canon, then he has of course attempted to throw in the proverbial spanner by attempting to say that the plain meaning of the text is not what Paul meant; why would anyone not deem our future inheritance where we will be united with Christ in a perfect state as not in fact being anything else but perfect?

As the material by Thomas is now very dated (1978) it would undoubtedly help things to post some contemporary material that is peer reviewed - poor Thomas, after reading his work he sounds much like the doubting Thomas of the New Testament - but again, he was writing in a period where the commentators of the period new very little about the things of the Spirit.

It seems that Thomas is obviously fully aware that Paul is talking about the Parousia but as he is also fully aware that the old understanding that Paul was supposedly speaking of either the death of the last Apostle-of-Christ, the writing of the last New Testament Book, or with the completion of the Canon, then he has of course attempted to throw in the proverbial spanner by attempting to say that the plain meaning of the text is not what Paul meant; why would anyone not deem our future inheritance where we will be united with Christ in a perfect state as not in fact being anything else but perfect?









 
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Biblicist

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I am sorry, with great respect, I just reject the notion. God who knows all has to pray to Himself through us for the things we don't know we need?
You can be well assured that Pentecostals, or at least those who are Trinitarian, that we are well aware that it God does not pray to himself, where many scholars and commentators will even point this out as we are aware that it is the Holy Spirit who is praying to the Father through us.
 
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Righttruth

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That is like saying obeying Christ to receive eternal life is selfish. Forbid not to speak in tongues.

Christianity demands, suffering, sharing and serving one another, not speaking gibberish for a deluded personal satisfaction! Crafty Paul gave a long rope to mockers in Corinth to stop this nuisance by preferring prophecy. History tells clearly that they took that advice and this stopped for hundreds of years only to be relapsed about one hundred years back in USA.

Furthermore, Paul never categorized speaking unknown tongue as a spiritual gift.
 
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Biblicist

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Yes, I suppose that when Paul said (14:5) "I wish that you all spoke in tongues" that he was merely being crafty in your view and when he instructs the Church to speak in tongues to the Father on three occasions during our meetings that he was being crafty as well.

Furthermore, Paul never categorized speaking unknown tongue as a spiritual gift.
Uh!!!!!!!!
 
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1stcenturylady

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I have experience in the spiritual gifts which trumps your lack of experience. This is why I have faith and you don't. This is also why I am able to hear his voice, because I understand what the word means, and you are wrapped up in your human reasoning. Seeing as you again used the "G" word, you are going on ignore. I have no time for reckless blasphemers.
 
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Righttruth

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Self-claim, self-proclamations are like modern technology selfies: pure selfish arrogance and self-centeredness !. Your personal experience cannot be be categorized as something spiritual. Considering unknown tongue as motivated by the Holy Spirit is a deluded human reasoning. Attaching that to the Holy Spirit is a blasphemy. I am concerned in proclaiming the way to the truth.

By the way, do you hear His voice that cannot be understood?
 
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Righttruth

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Yes, I suppose that when Paul said (14:5) "I wish that you all spoke in tongues"

Please don't mix up spiritual gift to personal utterance whenever the word 'tongue' is mentioned. Paul is actually referring to different languages he was able to speak, probably Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek,etc. Notice he never spoke in an unknown tongue in the congregation. Neither anyone else, Jesus and His chosen apostles included.

that he was merely being crafty in your view and when he instructs the Church to speak in tongues to the Father on three occasions during our meetings that he was being crafty as well.
Uh!!!!!!!!

The word 'crafty' is used by him to explain his method, not by me. Could you quote the verses for me. Again don't mix up tongues of Pentecost with mockery of utterances in notorious Corinth. We are dealing with a split tongue of a serpent so to say. Paul definitely considered them separately.
 
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Biblicist

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There are certain things in life that are absolutes, such as the sun rising in the East, that apples fall to the ground and that tongues are always directed toward the Father in inarticulate unintelligible sounds. Paul has not provided us with any indicators that tongues can be used to speak to others, which is something that you obviously already know, but for whatever reason that is unknown to us, you still keep on trying to pull this old humanist folly.
 
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Ken Rank

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That's fine.... do whatever you believe you are truly being led to do. Shalom.
 
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Alithis

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Actually stating the things of God are of the devil is the same thing the Pharisees accused Jesus of.
And then Jesus warned about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...
 
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ToBeLoved

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that was a me being cynical. Should have put an emoji in there. Updating post.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Actually stating the things of God are of the devil is the same thing the Pharisees accused Jesus of.
And then Jesus warned about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...
I believe that that was particular because the Pharisee's believed Jesus was close to God, yet assigned the devil to Him. I'm not sure that can even happen anymore in this way.
 
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