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Response to post #538............
ETC.Post#483: ......................Q1: ...
So there is such a thing as angelic languages, I mean, who would question it if Paul says, even hypothetically, "if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels" --
the other hypothetical "ifs" -- giving body to be burned, having faith to move mountains (which Jesus affirms as possibility also)
they all CAN BE DONE
so tongues involves languages of men and of angels
When individuals throw in the now very old and tired hypothetical line by rewording its meaning to that of hyperbole; which admittedly at times this may be the result of a limited education, it is usually little more than an attempt to deflect people away from the plain sense of the passage; essentially, it is little more than CNN theology as with fake news and intentional misdirects.
You people have to have lost your minds? Or - are you just being argumentative and hoping no one will call you on these ridiculous statements?
I'm staggered as to how you can equate prophecy with mysteries.
As Paul does not use the word gibberish then its use is something that I will leave to those who are apparently unaware of what it means to pray in the Spirit;
what Paul certainly says is that tongues can never be understood by the human ear, at least during times of congregational worship.
This has really gotten bizarre now. What might make you think that Justification by Faith ever ceased? Or could. It is not an action to be engaged in like talking. It is either true or it is not true.PS. Am I to presume that as you base your views regarding tongues on the Dark Age of the Church, where you feel this somehow justifies your view that tongues have ceased, that this means that you also reject the Doctrine of Justification by Faith?
Hey, I would be somewhat content if they at least knew something about the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit other than what they read about him in their very old and tired denominational creeds.
Who would not want to be able to pray in the Spirit.
If you like, you can be the first person who as ever been able to demonstrate where Paul says that tongues are to be given in known human languages; for that matter, if this were to be the case then why does Paul not provide us with any examples of this. So here you go, you can be the first one to do this.
To be fair, it can be easy for all of us to employ derogatory terms with regard to those things that we do not understand.
You need to go to 1 Cor 14 where Paul goes into a fair amount of detail to explain that when we pray in the Spirit (tongues) that they will always be given within inarticulate tongues - this should not be hard to grasp, it is something that is often taught in Sunday school programs.
Your quite right, well at least the ability of the broader Christian community to pray in the Spirit was certainly curtailed by Rome for centuries, where anyone who went against their demands were regularly put to the stake.
Temporary . . . where does the Bible say that the Manifestations of the Spirit and that our ability to pray in the Spirit as supposed to be temporary; other than with temporary meaning with the Eschaton where the Lord returns with his Kingdom.
As much as I need to compile a list of what many of the early Latin churchmen said regarding tongues, it appears that most of them were guessing and if for those who claimed that some speak in known human languages then they were obviously making this up to suit the moment.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 12:24-32
The only issue I would have with either of your replies to me, and I may have read this wrong so feel free to correct me... is that "baptism of the Holy Spirit" doesn't = speaking in tongues. To be immersed into the Spirit is just that, being immersed into the Spirit. That action manifests itself in many different ways, one of which is tongues but that is not exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. Here in Kentucky (my world view is wider than some who have been raised in Kentucky seeing I moved here from New Jersey but am also part of a ministry that reaches world wide) when around the Pentecostals I hear "Baptized into the Spirit" and it means "speaking in tongues to them." I have sat through a number of discussions with pastors, sat quietly allowing them to make their case based on Scripture... and in the end there is no way, scripturally, to get "speaking in tongues only" from "baptism in the Holy Spirit." It CAN be a manifestation of that act, but not the sole manifestation of that act.As a tongues speaking Pentecostal I certainly recognise that all those who have confessed Jesus as their Lord and Saviour that they are in fact Spirit filled, which of course goes against the views of those who are classic-Pentecostals such as the AoG who hold to the position that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is subsequent to our initially being sealed in the Spirit, but this is an increasingly minimal view where most Pentecostals such as myself now acknowledge that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is soteriological and not necessarily one of subsequence.
"When you come to grips" is not words that should be used in a discussion between two believers. That line places you above me, not Him above us.What you described is not scriptural and not what speaking in tongues was for. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
When you can come to grips with not contradicting God's Word, you may learn something.
How can you be right when the Scriptures tell us that when we pray in the Spirit (tongues) that his words are always directed toward the Father; what the Holy Spirit says to the Father as he intercedes on my behalf is the business of no other.
What spirituality? You completely discount 1 Corinthians 14:2 which is the Word of God, so your spirit is not of God. So what does that leave?
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