Spanking

[tall73]

Hopefully we can keep this thread on track. Please discuss whether spanking is a proper disciplinary approach--using Scripture please.

 

[tall73]

I think we can all agree that discipline is important. However, I also assert that spanking can sometimes be appropriate as well.

As to Scripture:

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Pro_22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Pro_29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother

Some interpret these verses to mean that we are to guide our children with the rod as a shepherd. However, I think the following verse makes it pretty clear that the rod was also intended for more direct application:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


As most have found different punishments work better in various circumstances and with different children.

 

[Bluelion]

I think we can all agree that discipline is important. However, I also assert that spanking can sometimes be appropriate as well.

As to Scripture:

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Pro_22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Pro_29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother

Some interpret these verses to mean that we are to guide our children with the rod as a shepherd. However, I think the following verse makes it pretty clear that the rod was also intended for more direct application:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


As most have found different punishments work better in various circumstances and with different children.

You realize the rod is a metaphor for fast to discipline, why did Jesus not strike any one. He is are example of how we should live.

There is another passage for the rod you left out Jesus would rule with an iron rod.

Why do you find it necessary to strike a child, to inflict pain on him to teach him something? I don't need to strike my child the tone of my voice is all i need. Its not necessary. God does not spread His kingdom by force or violence but by Love. Why does a person find they can not teach there child with out force or violence.

So i might as well give my story where I am coming from. When i grew up everyone got spanked. Belts were common, I never new anything was wrong until I became an adult and looked back. I realized it was not normal for my Mom and Dad to say when they whipped me that I would not sit down for a week, and then try to make it happen. It was not normal for welts to be on my butt or arms when it got so bad and I tried to block the blows. It was not normal for them to bleed. It was not normal for my dad to have a favorite belt he kept just for whipping. It was not normal for my mom to make a game out of it and see how creative she could get with finding different objects to beat me with. It was not normal to be whip when my parents had a bad day and need to take out some anger. It was not normal to be whipped for laughing to loud at play time.

Every time i have seen or spoke to a person they did not whip there child out of Love but anger or fear. And using anger or fear to to hurt a child is never ok and love is not violent.

So you will surely say well that was not good what happen to you, you know what all my friends can remember being whip just because they made their parent angry. That is not right.

Children are dependent on their parents, it is the act of a coward to strike a child. Leaders who strike their people are hated, why would you expect different from a child.

Funny thing is i learned no violent discipline from a very violent man. My martial arts teach who was once a body guard for the mob and told me in tears he had killed over a hundred people. He told me he could not hit his students with sticks any more because on tried to sue him. I told oh you can hit me I don't care, but he didn't. In fact he never hurt me and I got out of line with him a few times. He had to leave the room many times because he was so mad at me, but the way he discipline me made me love him and i think of him as a dad. All he ever had to do was change his tone voice. That was it and I knew. If he expressed Disappointment in me i was crushed, He might not pay me any attention for weeks, and I was crushed. He protected me from bad people, gangs in LA, and probably more than I know the mob. I would have died in LA if not for the protection.

And that is what a father is a protector.

God said treat others as you would like to be treated,

 

[tall73]

You realize the rod is a metaphor for fast to discipline,

I realize that the verses were encouraging discipline. However, specific methods are referenced, including rebuke and beating. Note especially the following verse:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

That does not sound metaphorical. It sounds like striking.

why did Jesus not strike any one. He is are example of how we should live.

Joh_2:15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

There is another passage for the rod you left out Jesus would rule with an iron rod.

That passage is speaking about more than just discipline. He dashes the nations to pieces:

Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us."
Psa 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying,
Psa 2:6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill."
Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."


and

Rev_19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Why do you find it necessary to strike a child, to inflict pain on him to teach him something? I don't need to strike my child the tone of my voice is all i need. Its not necessary. God does not spread His kingdom by force or violence but by Love. Why does a person find they can not teach there child with out force or violence.

Perhaps the first question you should ask is why does the Bible endorse it in Proverbs if it is never helpful?

I find spanking most helpful for the age where the child is old enough to reason cause to effect (or else it is needless pain), but not yet old enough to really reason through complex matters. The classic slapping of a hand to keep the child from a hot stove is one example. The workings of a stove may be beyond the child, but they can understand that a swat discourages them.

So i might as well give my story where I am coming from. When i grew up everyone got spanked. Belts were common, I never new anything was wrong until I became an adult and looked back. I realized it was not normal for my Mom and Dad to say when they whipped me that I would not sit down for a week, and then try to make it happen. It was not normal for welts to be on my butt or arms when it got so bad and I tried to block the blows. It was not normal for them to bleed. It was not normal for my dad to have a favorite belt he kept just for whipping. It was not normal for my mom to make a game out of it and see how creative she could get with finding different objects to beat me with. It was not normal to be whip when my parents had a bad day and need to take out some anger. It was not normal to be whipped for laughing to loud at play time.

Now whipping in anger, and enjoyment is of course not normal. However, can you truly say that is what is portrayed in Proverbs? Or is it for a different purpose?

Every time i have seen or spoke to a person they did not whip there child out of Love but anger or fear. And using anger or fear to to hurt a child is never ok and love is not violent.

So you will surely say well that was not good what happen to you, you know what all my friends can remember being whip just because they made their parent angry. That is not right.

And yet I was spanked and saw nothing wrong with it, and still do not. However, should you be convinced by my opinion? Or should you be convinced by what the Scriptures actually say?

Children are dependent on their parents, it is the act of a coward to strike a child. Leaders who strike their people are hated, why would you expect different from a child.

Was the Bible writer cowardly when he wrote the following?

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Was he recommending it out of cowardice or out of love, to save his child from the grave?

Funny thing is i learned no violent discipline from a very violent man. My martial arts teach who was once a body guard for the mob and told me in tears he had killed over a hundred people. He told me he could not hit his students with sticks any more because on tried to sue him. I told oh you can hit me I don't care, but he didn't. In fact he never hurt me and I got out of line with him a few times. He had to leave the room many times because he was so mad at me, but the way he discipline me made me love him and i think of him as a dad. All he ever had to do was change his tone voice. That was it and I knew. If he expressed Disappointment in me i was crushed, He might not pay me any attention for weeks, and I was crushed. He protected me from bad people, gangs in LA, and probably more than I know the mob. I would have died in LA if not for the protection.

It is good you had a role model. However, spanking your children is hardly the same as killing men. And think of something you just said. You indicated he would not pay any attention for weeks. Do you think with a child that would be better than a momentary spanking?

For a short time I gave my children a choice for their punishment, just to see what they would choose. They usually preferred the spanking over time out. It was over quickly and they went on with their day, realizing what they did was wrong, but realizing it was now over.

And that is what a father is a protector. If you can't find a better way to teach your child then to strike him, then you need to study your self and be discipline your self. Really it is hypocritical because the parent does not posses enough personal discipline to educate the child in a more productive way.

I see you have a lot of strong opinions on the topic.

However, you still have not addressed what Proverbs really says. I am looking for guidance from Scripture.

What do you suggest I study? Why not study Proverbs?

God said treat others as you would like to be treated, So if you do something bad it is ok for us to strike you right? Oh no you'll say no I am an adult, If it is not ok to strike a adult when they are bad, why is it ok to strike a child?

Actually they struck adults in the Bible too. And it probably would be better than long imprisonment even today.


Deu 25:1 "If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty,
Deu 25:2 then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offense.
Deu 25:3 Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight.

My kids today have said they have no issues with the fact that I spanked them. And they indicated they would spank their children as well.

However, again those are opinions of my kids. Why not respond to the text of Proverbs?

 

[Bluelion]

I realize that the verses were encouraging discipline. However, specific methods are referenced, including rebuke and beating. Note especially the following verse:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

That does not sound metaphorical. It sounds like striking.

That passage is speaking about more than just discipline. He dashes the nations to pieces:

Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us."
Psa 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying,
Psa 2:6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill."
Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

Perhaps the first question you should ask is why does the Bible endorse it in Proverbs if it is never helpful?

I find spanking most helpful for the age where the child is old enough to reason cause to effect (or else it is needless pain), but not yet old enough to really reason through complex matters. The classic slapping of a hand to keep the child from a hot stove is one example. The workings of a stove may be beyond the child, but they can understand that a swat discourages them.


Now whipping in anger, and enjoyment is of course not normal. However, can you truly say that is what is portrayed in Proverbs? Or is it for a different purpose?

And yet I was spanked and saw nothing wrong with it, and still do not. However, should you be convinced by my opinion? Or should you be convinced by what the Scriptures actually say?

Was the Bible writer cowardly when he wrote the following?

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Was he recommending it out of cowardice or out of love, to save his child from the grave?

It is good you had a role model. However, spanking your children is hardly the same as killing men. And think of something you just said. You indicated he would not pay any attention for weeks. Do you think with a child that would be better than a momentary spanking?

For a short time I gave my children a choice for their punishment, just to see what they would choose. They usually preferred the spanking over time out. It was over quickly and they went on with their day, realizing what they did was wrong, but realizing it was now over.


I see a lot of opinions about parenting. However, you still have not addressed what Proverbs really says.

What do you suggest I study? Why not study Proverbs?

Actually they struck adults in the Bible too. And it probably would be better than long imprisonment even today.

My kids today have said they have no issues with the fact that I spanked them. And they indicated they would spank their children as well.

However, again those are opinions of my kids. Why not respond to the text of Proverbs?

first off Psalms is speaking of war, funny you would use that to justify spankings.

The Bible also says if you steal that persons hand should be cut off, however, Jesus explained it meant do on to others as you would have done to you.

Yes they did beat people in the Bible Jesus was one of those people, and there was also long imprisonments and executions.

My answer to proverbs is it does not mean what you think it does.

and we can use are own reason here. If it is wrong to strike an adult for something they did wrong then it is double wrong to strike a child. We have laws against striking adults, so as a people we agree it is wrong.



What does the Bible teach us to do if a brother or sister offends(does something bad to us) it says speak to him or her, if they will not listen go and get two witness and you all speak to him or her, and if he does not listen bring it before the church, and if still no rebuke them, but if at any time they repent forgive them. The Bible does not say to strike our brother or sisters, but says we are to use words and bring it to God, out of love.



Do on to others as you would have done to you.

 

[tall73]

first off Psalms is speaking of war, funny you would use that to justify spankings.

I didn't use it to justify any such thing. You raised the question about what is meant by Jesus ruling with a rod of iron. I pointed out what the text means, which is that Jesus will dash the nations, since you raised the text in this context. It is about judgment.

The Bible also says if you steal that persons hand should be cut off, however, Jesus explained it meant do on to others as you would have done to you.

Would you please point out the text? That is not what the law required.

Exo 22:1 "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.

Now, did Jesus ever say not to discipline your children or not to spank?

Yes they did beat people in the Bible Jesus was one of those people, and there was also long imprisonments and executions.

My answer to proverbs is it does not mean what you think it does.

Then what does it mean?

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

and we can use are own reason here. If it is wrong to strike an adult for something they did wrong then it is double wrong to strike a child. We have laws against striking adults, so as a people we agree it is wrong.

So now the basis of morality is our laws? Why?
And if we go just by our laws, spanking is still legal in most states.

However, it is not necessary to use your own reason. Why not instead explain the verses:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Don't be surprised we some strikes you because you have expressed you would prefer it to some one explaining what you did wrong.

Most courts do not impose simply an explanation. And if you wind up guilty in court, it may indeed be better to suffer temporary striking than long imprisonment.

What does the Bible teach us to do if a brother or sister offends(does something bad to us) it says speak to him or her, if they will not listen go and get two witness and you all speak to him or her, and if he does not listen bring it before the church, and if still no rebuke them, but if at any time they repent forgive them.

Did you miss that Proverbs also endorses rebuking? You seem fine with that, why not the rest of Proverbs?

No amount of rebuking however may explain the workings of a stove to a child who is not at the point yet to understand it. But a quick swat might get the point through to them to avoid the stove.

The Bible does not say to strike our brother or sisters, but says we are to use words and bring it to God, out of love.

So your mercy is striking the child, so if some one strikes you they are having mercy on you?

Do on to others as you would have done to you. You could say that is living by the sword.

Or you could say that the Bible says striking the child is good and you have not explained why that is not the case.

Now was God against beating as a punishment for adults? If so, why did He institute the following?


Deu 25:1 "If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty,
Deu 25:2 then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offense.
Deu 25:3 Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight.

And even in the New Testament the church was not against just punishment against the wicked by the government:

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
Rom 13:4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Paul here indicates that the government bears the sword for a reason, to punish wrong doing.

Peter likewise indicated that the government punishes the wicked justly, but that we should not suffer for such reasons as that, rather, if we suffer, it should be for Christ:

Pe 2:19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly.
1Pe 2:20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

 

[tall73]

I added a couple of things to the earlier post, but apparently you were already responding. I am re posting one point here:

why did Jesus not strike any one. He is are example of how we should live.

Joh_2:15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

You've provided adequate Scripture...

I'm old enough to have had some first hand experience with corporal punishment, both from the giving and receiving end of the paddle. Looking back on it now, I'd sum it all up by saying "Show me where frequent spankings took place and I'll show you some very poor parenting."

 

[Keachian]

I think you've pretty much summed up the Scriptural reasons why I would endorse spanking Tall73, discipline including spanking I wouldn't think of something that parents enjoy for the sake of it as an end in and of itself but as Prov 23:13-14 says the reason that we should discipline is to save/train/teach our children. I also think you have given a brilliant example in the swatting away of a hand about to touch a stovetop.

 

[OzSpen]

Tall73,

You have provided some excellent verses from Scripture and other sound responses for discipline of a child, including corporeal punishment.

After 34 years of counselling and recently retired after 17 straight years as a counselling manager, I wish more of the secular people with whom I counselled had put into practice what you are advocating from Scripture.

May the Lord bless and encourage you in your godly wisdom.

In Christ,
Oz

I realize that the verses were encouraging discipline. However, specific methods are referenced, including rebuke and beating. Note especially the following verse:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

That does not sound metaphorical. It sounds like striking.

Joh_2:15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

That passage is speaking about more than just discipline. He dashes the nations to pieces:

Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us."
Psa 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying,
Psa 2:6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill."
Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."


and

Rev_19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Perhaps the first question you should ask is why does the Bible endorse it in Proverbs if it is never helpful?

I find spanking most helpful for the age where the child is old enough to reason cause to effect (or else it is needless pain), but not yet old enough to really reason through complex matters. The classic slapping of a hand to keep the child from a hot stove is one example. The workings of a stove may be beyond the child, but they can understand that a swat discourages them.


Now whipping in anger, and enjoyment is of course not normal. However, can you truly say that is what is portrayed in Proverbs? Or is it for a different purpose?

And yet I was spanked and saw nothing wrong with it, and still do not. However, should you be convinced by my opinion? Or should you be convinced by what the Scriptures actually say?

Was the Bible writer cowardly when he wrote the following?

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Was he recommending it out of cowardice or out of love, to save his child from the grave?

It is good you had a role model. However, spanking your children is hardly the same as killing men. And think of something you just said. You indicated he would not pay any attention for weeks. Do you think with a child that would be better than a momentary spanking?

For a short time I gave my children a choice for their punishment, just to see what they would choose. They usually preferred the spanking over time out. It was over quickly and they went on with their day, realizing what they did was wrong, but realizing it was now over.


I see you have a lot of strong opinions on the topic.

However, you still have not addressed what Proverbs really says. I am looking for guidance from Scripture.

What do you suggest I study? Why not study Proverbs?

Actually they struck adults in the Bible too. And it probably would be better than long imprisonment even today.


Deu 25:1 "If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty,
Deu 25:2 then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offense.
Deu 25:3 Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight.

My kids today have said they have no issues with the fact that I spanked them. And they indicated they would spank their children as well.

However, again those are opinions of my kids. Why not respond to the text of Proverbs?

 

[Hetta]

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

If you use a rod on a child you will quite rightly be arrested and your child will be taken from you permanently. So to say that it is a literal description of how a child should be disciplined is just incorrect.

A 'rod' can take all kinds of forms. Do you know this scripture too:

thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Is that rod a 'spanking' rod?

A rod for discipline can be anything that a parent uses to correct their child. We have never, ever spanked our children, and they have turned out just great. They are law abiding, polite, good students, and two are in adulthood already. They have said that they were glad that we did not spank them, that they understood that they were being punished/corrected in the way that we did it, and have said that they will bring up their own kids the same way we brought them up - this is despite the fact that, during some stages of their lives, they said that we were "too strict" with them. Now they are older, they understand the restrictions that we placed on their tv/movie viewing/game playing, and why we always insisted on knowing where they were going/who they were with and why we would punish them if they lied about this. Two are safely at adulthood, the rest are on their way, and I'm glad we didn't hit them hands, spoons - or rods.

 

[Hetta]

You've provided adequate Scripture...

I'm old enough to have had some first hand experience with corporal punishment, both from the giving and receiving end of the paddle. Looking back on it now, I'd sum it all up by saying "Show me where frequent spankings took place and I'll show you some very poor parenting."

 

[Hetta]

I also think you have given a brilliant example in the swatting away of a hand about to touch a stovetop.

There are other ways. With my children, for one thing, there were no stovetops within their reach. I don't know how all of these children that get quoted are reaching for stovetops because the typical 2 yo is about 2 feet high, and the stovetop is about 4 feet high. But anyway, I often cooked with a child in my arms, because they wanted to see what mom was doing, and be a part of it. So they got to realize, pretty quickly, that what went on 'up there' was hot and they didn't want any part of it. They only had to reach out a chubby arm to feel the heat. So that was the way they were trained about stovetops, but again, they couldn't have reached it without me holding them up there.

All of our electrical points were permanently protected by the plug in plastic thingies - I can't remember what they are called. We used rubber bands to keep our cupboards closed - but we had one drawer where there were lots of old pans and kitchen implements that the kids could pull out and play with. Anything breakable was out of reach ... this is how you create an environment where you don't have to be constantly saying 'no' or slapping your kids. It takes just a bit of creativity and commonsense on the part of the parent, that's all.

 

[Hammster]

I think we can all agree that discipline is important. However, I also assert that spanking can sometimes be appropriate as well.

As to Scripture:

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Pro_22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Pro_29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother

Some interpret these verses to mean that we are to guide our children with the rod as a shepherd. However, I think the following verse makes it pretty clear that the rod was also intended for more direct application:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


As most have found different punishments work better in various circumstances and with different children.

We have three biological children. Number 1 needed the spankings. No doubt. Very strong willed. The rod of discipline (not punishment) was applied. I think the scripture is clear that it's acceptable.

Two and three just needed stern words and looks for the most part. They got a couple of seats every now and again, but not like number one.

God gave us these children to raise. It's not anyone's business how we chose to do so unless there was abuse (which there wasn't).

If someone doesn't think spanking is right, that's between them and God. I'm not going to judge them.

 

[Davesnothere]

Good morning,

Hopefully we can keep this thread on track. Please discuss whether spanking is a proper disciplinary approach--using Scripture please.

Using scripture just gives us something else to argue over... In my opinion, spanking is a useful tool for parents to have in their tool box if it is administered correctly. It's really a matter of common sense, and our rule of thumb is to only spank for willful disobedience, to always give the opportunity for reconciliation afterwards, and to never spank in anger.

Sorry if I derailed your OP.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

I don't know how all of these children that get quoted are reaching for stovetops because the typical 2 yo is about 2 feet high, and the stovetop is about 4 feet high.

Stovetops, unless they are built-ins and thus flush to the counter top, are 1" taller than counter height, which is 34". Kids that are two feet tall (24") can't usually walk yet, unless they are very, very precocious. The typical two year old is the same height as that counter top and walking. He/she can easily reach a stovetop. And does, quite often.

But anyway, I often cooked with a child in my arms, because they wanted to see what mom was doing, and be a part of it. So they got to realize, pretty quickly, that what went on 'up there' was hot and they didn't want any part of it. They only had to reach out a chubby arm to feel the heat.

Which, I'm sure, you then gently pulled back and said "Hot!" That's how they got the message. They didn't "self-realize" without experimentation and correction.

So that was the way they were trained about stovetops, but again, they couldn't have reached it without me holding them up there.

As I said before, obviously they could have, and probably attempted it. Fortunately, either the stove was off, or someone corrected them, whether it was you, your husband or someone else. Again, children don't "self-realize" anything, unless they experience the burn, the shock, the bite, the cut or gash, or other "learning experience" scar.

All of our electrical points were permanently protected by the plug in plastic thingies - I can't remember what they are called.

"Plastic thingies" -- at least that's what we called them.

We used rubber bands to keep our cupboards closed - but we had one drawer where there were lots of old pans and kitchen implements that the kids could pull out and play with.

Same here.

Anything breakable was out of reach ... this is how you create an environment where you don't have to be constantly saying 'no' or slapping your kids.

Right now I'm back to being a home builder, a profession I enjoyed for years, but years ago, so I can pay for a masters in behavioral psychology. (That's how I know how tall are a kitchen range and a counter top.) I also, because it is my true calling, have a great deal of experience and training both as an addictions professional, and as a marriage and family counselor. As a counselor, I can tell you that if you never said "No" to your kids, then you now have kids/adults that don't understand restraint. I'm relatively certain that is the case, or you said "No" a lot more often than you recall.

It takes just a bit of creativity and commonsense on the part of the parent, that's all.

And it also takes, with most children, physical discipline of some measure. I only spanked my son twice, my daughter three times, and they were last-resort punishments, and the punishment did not leave redness or a mark. Nonetheless, the message was received. There is nothing wrong with spanking, if it isn't done in anger nor for retribution.

 

[Hetta]

Right now I'm back to being a home builder, a profession I enjoyed for years, but years ago, so I can pay for a masters in behavioral psychology. (That's how I know how tall are a kitchen range and a counter top.) I also, because it is my true calling, have a great deal of experience and training both as an addictions professional, and as a marriage and family counselor. As a counselor, I can tell you that if you never said "No" to your kids, then you now have kids/adults that don't understand restraint. I'm relatively certain that is the case, or you said "No" a lot more often than you recall.

Did you read what I said? I said that you don't have to be constantly saying 'no'.

And it also takes, with most children, physical discipline of some measure. I only spanked my son twice, my daughter three times, and they were last-resort punishments, and the punishment did not leave redness or a mark. Nonetheless, the message was received. There is nothing wrong with spanking, if it isn't done in anger nor for retribution.

I disagree. And I guess my children aren't 'most' then, because they were never spanked, and I was never spanked, and my MIL tells me that she spanked my husband exactly once and never wanted to do it again. We all turned out/are turning out okay.

People can be a lot more creative than that.

 

[Hetta]

Which, I'm sure, you then gently pulled back and said "Hot!" That's how they got the message. They didn't "self-realize" without experimentation and correction.

Yes of course I said 'hot', but they knew that there was an unpleasant association connected to the stove.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

I disagree. And I guess my children aren't 'most' then, because they were never spanked, and I was never spanked, and my MIL tells me that she spanked my husband exactly once and never wanted to do it again. We all turned out/are turning out okay.

People can be a lot more creative than that.

And I was. Note, I said spanking was a last resort. My son is a professional soccer player in the MLS, my daughter is a med student at Mizzou. Not bad, either, for being "victims," huh?

 

[Hetta]

And I was. Note, I said spanking was a last resort. My son is a professional soccer player in the MLS, my daughter is a med student at Mizzou. Not bad, either, for being "victims," huh?

Show me where I used the word 'victims'.

Total strawman.