Spacetime or a vacuum can never be totally empty.

Anguspure

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And there you go again .. completely ignoring and dodging the fact that 'nothing' is still a concept which takes a human mind to conceive. Yet again, I'll point out the whole 'something from nothing'.. is a hypothetical, (which takes a human mind to conceive), for goodness sake! If you don't agree, then please tell us where else you think hypotheticals do come from? (Even when you do that you'll be demonstrating my point by using your own mind!)

The meaning of 'nothing' also takes a human mind to come up with! If you don't agree then please state the test which demonstrates that meanings are somehow floating around independently from us, waiting for us to somehow miraculously 'discover'! I'm quite comfortable with 'nothing' having the meaning of quantum field/fluctuations (etc) because there is clear evidence that these concepts were developed by human, scientifically thinking minds over the last century or so. Even the 'absence of everything' meaning is still a model conceived by minds which you (& many others) continually ignore! Why is that when its completely obvious? In the scenario where there are no human minds, no atoms, no nothing ... what is continually overlooked is that it still takes a mind to envisage such a state. It therefore has meaning, otherwise I couldn't have possibly understood the notion put forward (by Michael?)
But it does mean that the "Quantum Field" dunnit it is little different from the God dunnit of the God of gaps. Both things are conjured because nobody really wants to follow the evidence anymore.
 
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sjastro

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But it does mean that the "Quantum Field" dunnit it is little different from the God dunnit of the God of gaps. Both things are conjured because nobody really wants to follow the evidence anymore.
On the contrary the theory behind a "Quantum Field" makes the counter intuitive prediction that empty space or a vacuum can exert a force.
This was a prediction made in 1948; in 1997 this force was directly measured in the laboratory via the Casimir effect.
So the Casimir effect is the evidence that a vacuum is a Quantum Field in the lowest energy level.
 
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Anguspure

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On the contrary the theory behind a "Quantum Field" makes the counter intuitive prediction that empty space or a vacuum can exert a force.
This was a prediction made in 1948; in 1997 this force was directly measured in the laboratory via the Casimir effect.
So the Casimir effect is the evidence that a vacuum is a Quantum Field in the lowest energy level.
Nothing (which is actually something) can exert something?!?!?! Oh I see.....
 
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Anguspure

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On the contrary the theory behind a "Quantum Field" makes the counter intuitive prediction that empty space or a vacuum can exert a force.
This was a prediction made in 1948; in 1997 this force was directly measured in the laboratory via the Casimir effect.
So the Casimir effect is the evidence that a vacuum is a Quantum Field in the lowest energy level.
Actually it occurs to me that this is all a bit like the old explorers that used to declare big old tracts of wilderness as being empty waste lands devoid of anything. When the truth is that they where incredibly rich ecosystems full of life, just not the sort of life that these guys were looking for.
The scientistic world butts its head against YHWH and declares that it is nothing, but the mountain is still a few hundred feet higher, and there's still some holy men waiting for a bit of firewood at the top.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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It would have been better, but even the term "empty space" invites unnecessary ambiguity because the term "empty" is typically associated with an absence of everything.
So, you'd deny him the vernacular usage, but you'd also deny him the jargon usage. What's a guy to do? (rhetorical)

He was ultimately trying to convey the the concept of quantum fields...
That wasn't the intent of the book at all; quantum fields were just part of the story. Did you actually read the book?

IMO, he should have simply put a question mark on the book title, "A Universe From Nothing?", which sums up the tone of the whole thing nicely.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Actually, I'm well aware of the fact that suggesting that God created the universe also kicks the can down the street which is why I would never use that argument to begin with.
As it happens, Krauss addresses the 'God-did-it issue', preferring the ideas of Aristotle, who recognised the fallacy of special pleading in God-the-creator before Christianity even existed.

Frankly however the concept that "God did it" seems far more plausible to me personally than "quantum fields, inflation, space expansion, dark energy, dark matter and whatever else astronomers dream up next to fix their current problem did it". Talk about kicking the can down the street. That can has more dents in it than a car in a demolition derby. :)
For a hungry man, better a dented can of beans than an imaginary one, however smooth and shiny.
 
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Michael

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So, you'd deny him the vernacular usage, but you'd also deny him the jargon usage. What's a guy to do? (rhetorical)

That wasn't the intent of the book at all; quantum fields were just part of the story. Did you actually read the book?

IMO, he should have simply put a question mark on the book title, "A Universe From Nothing?", which sums up the tone of the whole thing nicely.

I don't deny him anything, but I don't feel sorry for him for taking the flack he took either. Yes I read the book and I was quite disappointed. IMO it was a philosophical and scientific mess because he tried to straddle both sides of the argument and didn't do either of them any justice. He essentially engaged himself in the same behavior that he was trying to criticize.
 
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Michael

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For a hungry man, better a dented can of beans than an imaginary one, however smooth and shiny.

Perhaps so, but that particular dented can is empty, and covered with imaginary labels. :)
 
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sjastro

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Nothing (which is actually something) can exert something?!?!?! Oh I see.....
This is a classic reaction based on the argument from personal incredulity fallacy.
You don’t comprehend the science so therefore it must be wrong.
To compound your confusion either further, there are different types of vacuum based on the quantum field.
The electromagnetic field has its own vacuum as does the field associated with the strong interaction or nuclear force; both of which are supported by experimental evidence.
 
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Anguspure

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This is a classic reaction based on the argument from personal incredulity fallacy.
People should be incredulous when faced with nonsense.
You don’t comprehend the science so therefore it must be wrong.
I understand the science well enough and can see scientism a mile away.
To compound your confusion either further, there are different types of vacuum based on the quantum field.
The electromagnetic field has its own vacuum as does the field associated with the strong interaction or nuclear force; both of which are supported by experimental evidence.
Both of which are some thing. The very fact that a descriptor is used to explain what they are determines this.
The set of "things" in the quantum vacuum is not empty. In the vernacular the only set that qualifies as "nothing" is a set that has no thing in it.
The only reason that "nothing" is being invoked to describe quantum vacuum states is to avoid questions about what created the quantum vacuum. It is downright deceitful, and no intelligent person should buy into this sort of scientistic propaganda.
 
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46AND2

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People should be incredulous when faced with nonsense.

I understand the science well enough and can see scientism a mile away.

Both of which are some thing. The very fact that a descriptor is used to explain what they are determines this.
The set of "things" in the quantum vacuum is not empty. In the vernacular the only set that qualifies as "nothing" is a set that has no thing in it.
The only reason that "nothing" is being invoked to describe quantum vacuum states is to avoid questions about what created the quantum vacuum. It is downright deceitful, and no intelligent person should buy into this sort of scientistic propaganda.

Therein lies the rub. You don't like the Big Bang because the singularity couldn't have come from nothing. When Krauss writes that it could have come from quantum fluctuations, you don't like that either, cause it can't come from nothing. And it would continue on if we ever determine the origins of the quantum fields.

The problem is that you never demonstrate that there ever "existed" a nothing state from which something had to come. You merely assert it.

Please explain why it is necessary to address the something from nothing question, if there is no confirmation that it was ever required.
 
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Ophiolite

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People should be incredulous when faced with nonsense.
I have never had any problem believing that you had posted exactly what you had appeared to have posted? I wonder why you think I shouldn't believe it. :)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The only reason that "nothing" is being invoked to describe quantum vacuum states is to avoid questions about what created the quantum vacuum. It is downright deceitful, and no intelligent person should buy into this sort of scientistic propaganda.
It's not deceitful when the author explains exactly what he means by it and why he's doing it that way.

What is deceitful is to misrepresent the author - who explicitly addresses the question of the origins of the quantum vacuum.
 
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Anguspure

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It's not deceitful when the author explains exactly what he means by it and why he's doing it that way.

What is deceitful is to misrepresent the author - who explicitly addresses the question of the origins of the quantum vacuum.
As I have written earlier, I can smell scientism.
 
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Anguspure

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Therein lies the rub. You don't like the Big Bang because the singularity couldn't have come from nothing. When Krauss writes that it could have come from quantum fluctuations, you don't like that either, cause it can't come from nothing. And it would continue on if we ever determine the origins of the quantum fields.
Big bang is not problem, and in line with the Genesis account. I don't mind that it started with Quantum fluctuations either. Whatever the Creator used to create is His thing, for us to investigate.

The problem is that you never demonstrate that there ever "existed" a nothing state from which something had to come. You merely assert it.

I do not assert a nothing state. What I think is that there was a state where there was no space-time of any sort and only God. We could say that God created from nothing, but the creation account states that He spoke which means it wasn't from nothing, rather the universe comes into being from whatever it is that He utters when He speaks. Quantum fluctuations may well be the voice of God.

Please explain why it is necessary to address the something from nothing question, if there is no confirmation that it was ever required.
Because to call a state where there is something, "nothing" does an injury to the English language. The term nothing describes a set where there is no thing.
Krauss and his cohorts are always looking for a way to oppose any hint of theism and to equivocate the quantum vacuum with a state of nothingness works in this way.
 
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Sam91

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I'm no scientist but the concept of nothing has kept me awake in my youth and I'd give people an almost delirious, mindblowing, wide-eyed raving explanation of how 'nothing can't exist' and then a description of how universe was created.

Of course, as a Christian I believe God did it. 'Let there be light'. But I guess this universe was created out of nothing and when matter was created so was the antimatter. Nothing, which didn't exist, became something. But of course it was never there to begin with. So how was there even a void for nothing to be in though? Is the universe so huge because it wasn't there, and that's why it has no bounds? Because if it has bounds this dimension must have existed at which point it wasn't nothing but a vast emptyish space. Why did it not collapse in on itself? I guess that is moving towards the idea of a universe that expands and contracts... However, I like the concept of an infinite void with no bounds because it makes the anomaly of it even being there a much more stimulating an idea to try to comprehend. When all is said and done I bet it all the physical (and anti physical... and time) cancels each other out and if it was reverse engineered all the particles would cancel each other out and even the void would be gone.. or would it. Even better if time and anti-time cancel each other out to and we would never have existed... or would we have? I used like to toying with all options.

How very unscientific of me but I'm better thinking of that than the nothing can't exist argument that gets me going especially because it's nearly midnight here. :D Just saying lol.

Carry on...
 
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Anguspure

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I'm no scientist but the concept of nothing has kept me awake in my youth and I'd give people an almost delirious, mindblowing, wide-eyed raving explanation of how 'nothing can't exist' and then a description of how universe was created.

Of course, as a Christian I believe God did it. 'Let there be light'. But I guess this universe was created out of nothing and when matter was created so was the antimatter. Nothing, which didn't exist, became something. But of course it was never there to begin with. So how was there even a void for nothing to be in though? Is the universe so huge because it wasn't there, and that's why it has no bounds? Because if it has bounds this dimension must have existed at which point it wasn't nothing but a vast emptyish space. Why did it not collapse in on itself? I guess that is moving towards the idea of a universe that expands and contracts... However, I like the concept of an infinite void with no bounds because it makes the anomaly of it even being there a much more stimulating an idea to try to comprehend. When all is said and done I bet it all the physical (and anti physical... and time) cancels each other out and if it was reverse engineered all the particles would cancel each other out and even the void would be gone.. or would it. Even better if time and anti-time cancel each other out to and we would never have existed... or would we have? I used like to toying with all options.

How very unscientific of me but I'm better thinking of that than the nothing can't exist argument that gets me going especially because it's nearly midnight here. :D Just saying lol.

Carry on...
The thing is, that we are all scientists to a greater or lesser degree. Some have spent more time than most of us developing an understanding of what they are looking at, and/or have been trained in the formal method of investigation. But we can all see the world around us and we are all capable of the thinking required to investigate it.

The problem is not scientifically illiterate kids; it is scientifically illiterate adults. Kids are born curious about the natural world. They are always turning over rocks, jumping with two feet into mud puddles and playing with the tablecloth and fine china. Neil deGrasse Tyson

Read more at Neil deGrasse Tyson Quotes - BrainyQuote

"Even though advanced scientific training can reduce acceptance of scientifically inaccurate teleological explanations, it can not erase a tenacious early-emergent tendency to find purpose in nature." Deborah Keleman from Art Jahnke, Natural Design by Default: Why Even the Best Trained Scientists Should Think Twice
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Really?

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins
Dawkins likes to give an emotive edge to his opinions, but I think his point is broadly correct - the universe we see looks like just what we'd expect from a dense quark-gluon plasma expanding and condensing according to a few simple physical rules.

But I was referring to the YouTube video description: "Has science proven we are all just matter?"
 
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Anguspure

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Dawkins likes to give an emotive edge to his opinions, but I think his point is broadly correct - the universe we see looks like just what we'd expect from a dense quark-gluon plasma expanding and condensing according to a few simple physical rules.

But I was referring to the YouTube video description: "Has science proven we are all just matter?"
'
What is the straw man here? It is a question predicated on the methodological materialism of science.
The methodology of science is deliberately restricted to what is matter. It is called methodological materialism.

Scientism as an ideaology maintains that all truth is discoverable by science that employs methodological materialism. Therefore Scientism claims that all things are "just matter" and so by logical extension that things such as our selves are just matter. This is the nature of Scientism.

So perhaps the question should be "Has Scientism proven we are all just matter?" But why? Considering that Science is indistinguishable from Scientism in the vernacular, and that Scientism poses as science in the popular media, even though we who look at the issue a bit more deeply know differently, the people who the video is aimed at would not.

Perhaps for them it is Science that stands in opposition to teleological explanations that invoke non-material explanations and so we are free to put forward the common understanding in a question about whether or not science has proven that we are all just matter.

But you are right. Science properly understood follows the evidence where ever it leads, even if the evidence leads us beyond methodological naturalism into a world where intelligent persons design material things.

So the question of whether science has proved that we are all just matter is in fact ridiculous, of course we are not just matter in a material world, of course we are composed of elements that transcend materialism as does the source of our origin and creation.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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An appeal to humanity and truth often contains emotional content.
How many times in my short life have I heard those with other agendas dismissing the emotion as unreal when they wish to push their inhumane and untruthful dogma on people for their own advantage? Almost daily in my professional life.
Appeal to emotion is fine in appropriate circumstances, but not in an argument about scientific merit.
 
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