Southern Baptists and Once Saved Always Saved

[Danthemailman]

salvation isn't ours to lose, it is His to keep.

One cannot lose salvation. What torment many of you live in always feeling like you have to walk on eggshells each day. That is not how God wants you to walk! Imagine how He feels when someone denies His finished work on the cross.

Sorry but a father does not kick a child out of the family of the child messes up for awhile.

Amen! Fear and bondage to insecurity is no way to live the Christian life.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[A New Dawn]

All of Jesus' warnings about falling away or apostasy would make no sense, if one could not fall away. Even the parable of the sower states that some "believed for a while, but fell away."

We have free will to choose God. The only way OSAS would work, is if you lost your free will once you choose to believe.

Not necessarily. True faith, where God has drawn you and turned your heart to Himself, one cannot fall away from. Not all who say they believe are true believers. Sometimes one has an emotional response that may look like they've accepted Christ, but if it isn't lasting, then it wasn't true faith. That is why the P in TULIP is important. Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints. Since nothing can pluck us from the hand of God, perseverance demonstrates true faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not necessarily. True faith, where God has drawn you and turned your heart to Himself, one cannot fall away from. Not all who say they believe are true believers. Sometimes one has an emotional response that may look like they've accepted Christ, but if it isn't lasting, then it wasn't true faith. That is why the P in TULIP is important. Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints. Since nothing can pluck us from the hand of God, perseverance demonstrates true faith.

Paul would disagree with that because in 2 Timothy 2:12 he specifically stated that both he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and if they did Christ would deny them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not necessarily. True faith, where God has drawn you and turned your heart to Himself, one cannot fall away from. Not all who say they believe are true believers. Sometimes one has an emotional response that may look like they've accepted Christ, but if it isn't lasting, then it wasn't true faith. That is why the P in TULIP is important. Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints. Since nothing can pluck us from the hand of God, perseverance demonstrates true faith.

Jesus didn’t say that they will say that they believe. He said some WILL BELIEVE and fall away. Surely Jesus has no problems with knowing whether or not a person is a true believer or not.

 

[A New Dawn]

Jesus didn’t say that they will say that they believe. He said some WILL BELIEVE and fall away. Surely Jesus has no problems with knowing whether or not a person is a true believer or not.

I didn’t say that he said they would say they believed. But He DID say not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven. So clearly there are some who say it who are not believers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I didn’t say that he said they would say they believed. But He DID say not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven. So clearly there are some who say it who are not believers.

Yeah the point I was making is that Jesus did specifically state that some will believe and fall away. It appeared that you were saying that those people He was referring to were not true believers.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yeah the point I was making is that Jesus did specifically state that some will believe and fall away. It appeared that you were saying that those people He was referring to were not true believers.

From reading 2 Timothy 2:12 in context, I'm not getting that from it. It appears that Paul is saying just the opposite. In verses 8-13, Paul seems to be speaking about the assurety of salvation for the chosen. The P in TULIP, preservation of the saints. So it seems to support what I said. I have to ask, if someone's heart was truly turned by God to himself, that also means that your will is changed to agree with God. If your will is changed and you agree with God, why would you deny Him? You clipped only a portion of that verse to speak to without quoting the whole verse. The whole verse states

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Which is what I said in the beginning.

Can you provide the reference regarding saying Christ said some will believe and fall away so I can also put a context to that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

From reading 2 Timothy 2:12 in context, I'm not getting that from it. It appears that Paul is saying just the opposite. In verses 8-13, Paul seems to be speaking about the assurety of salvation for the chosen. The P in TULIP, preservation of the saints. So it seems to support what I said. I have to ask, if someone's heart was truly turned by God to himself, that also means that your will is changed to agree with God. If your will is changed and you agree with God, why would you deny Him? You clipped only a portion of that verse to speak to without quoting the whole verse. The whole verse states

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Which is what I said in the beginning.

Can you provide the reference regarding saying Christ said some will believe and fall away so I can also put a context to that?

If Paul taught true believers can’t turn away from Christ why would he even make this statement? Did he question the validity of his own faith? Why say “if we deny Christ” if Paul is teaching that he can’t deny Christ?

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

if someone's heart was truly turned by God to himself, that also means that your will is changed to agree with God.

That doesn’t mean that you can’t act against God’s will hence Ephesians 4:30.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB1995

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

Just to add from the Founders web page:

Chapter 17 - The Perseverance of the Saints - Founders Ministries

1. Those God has accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect can neither totally nor finally fall from a state of grace. They will certainly persevere in grace to the end and be eternally saved, because the gifts and...

founders.org

In Him,

Bill

 

[A New Dawn]

If Paul taught true believers can’t turn away from Christ why would he even make this statement? Did he question the validity of his own faith? Why say “if we deny Christ” if Paul is teaching that he can’t deny Christ?

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes, so they are not true believers.
- No firm roots
- Believe for a while
- Fall away in times of temptation
Exactly what I described in my post. Are you suggesting that because he doesn’t come out and say “they weren’t true believers” that they couldn’t have not been true believers when we can know them by their works.

I believe you have to use the verse as a whole to understand what he is saying, and as a whole he is obviously comparing believers to deniers (unbelievers). I further believe that if it is as you suggest, then Peter would not have continued to be part of Jesus’ inner crowd.

 

[A New Dawn]

That doesn’t mean that you can’t act against God’s will hence Ephesians 4:30.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB1995

And where did I ever suggest that you can't? Everyone has a nature, and everyone has a will, and everyone sins no matter what your nature is. There will always be unintentional sin in believers, but it is something that can be (and should be) repented of. Some believers unfortunately even become involved in intentional sin, but that can also be repented of. If they do not, then God disciplines them, but they do not stop being believers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, so they are not true believers.
- No firm roots
- Believe for a while
- Fall away in times of temptation
Exactly what I described in my post. Are you suggesting that because he doesn’t come out and say “they weren’t true believers” that they couldn’t have not been true believers when we can know them by their works.

I believe you have to use the verse as a whole to understand what he is saying, and as a whole he is obviously comparing believers to deniers (unbelievers). I further believe that if it is as you suggest, then Peter would not have continued to be part of Jesus’ inner crowd.

You’re contradicting what Jesus said. He specifically said they believe for a while. He isn’t saying that they did not believe for a while then fell away. Why would He say they believed FOR A WHILE if they never actually believed? That doesn’t make any sense at all. The term “FOR A WHILE” mandates that they had to have truly believed otherwise the statement doesn’t make any sense.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And where did I ever suggest that you can't? Everyone has a nature, and everyone has a will, and everyone sins no matter what your nature is. There will always be unintentional sin in believers, but it is something that can be (and should be) repented of. Some believers unfortunately even become involved in intentional sin, but that can also be repented of. If they do not, then God disciplines them, but they do not stop being believers.

Amen sin can be repented of, but my point is that just because we have received a new heart doesn’t mean that we are forced to conform to God’s will. In your previous post you said that we can’t deny Christ because God has given us a new heart aligned with His will. I quoted this verse to indicate that just because we’ve been given a new heart doesn’t mean that we can’t act in defiance to God. And if you keep reading Ephesians 4:30 on into chapter 5 verse 6 you’ll see that Paul tells these very same Ephesians who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit that if they act immorally or impure they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God and the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, so they are not true believers.
- No firm roots
- Believe for a while
- Fall away in times of temptation
Exactly what I described in my post. Are you suggesting that because he doesn’t come out and say “they weren’t true believers” that they couldn’t have not been true believers when we can know them by their works.

I believe you have to use the verse as a whole to understand what he is saying, and as a whole he is obviously comparing believers to deniers (unbelievers). I further believe that if it is as you suggest, then Peter would not have continued to be part of Jesus’ inner crowd.

You never answered my question regarding 2 Timothy 2:12

If Paul taught true believers can’t turn away from Christ why would he even make this statement? Did he question the validity of his own faith? Why say “if we deny Christ” if Paul is teaching that he can’t deny Christ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe you have to use the verse as a whole to understand what he is saying, and as a whole he is obviously comparing believers to deniers (unbelievers). I further believe that if it is as you suggest, then Peter would not have continued to be part of Jesus’ inner crowd.

Peter repented. I never said a person can’t repent. What Paul is saying is that even he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ to the point of being denied by Christ. As long as there’s air in your lungs and blood pumping thru your veins you have the ability to repent and be saved. It’s not a one time denial that results in condemnation. Obviously Peter is an example of that.

 

[A New Dawn]

Amen sin can be repented of, but my point is that just because we have received a new heart doesn’t mean that we are forced to conform to God’s will. In your previous post you said that we can’t deny Christ because God has given us a new heart aligned with His will. I quoted this verse to indicate that just because we’ve been given a new heart doesn’t mean that we can’t act in defiance to God. And if you keep reading Ephesians 4:30 on into chapter 5 verse 6 you’ll see that Paul tells these very same Ephesians who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit that if they act immorally or impure they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God and the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

“Forced” is such an inaccurate characterization of what most who believe in the Doctrines of Grace believe. What we DO believe is that when God turns our heart of stone into a heart of flesh, it changes our nature from fallen to redeemed, and at that time we come into agreement with God’s will. It is not FORCED, we do it because we love and cherish the new relationship we have with God and want to follow his will for us.

 

[A New Dawn]

Peter repented. I never said a person can’t repent. What Paul is saying is that even he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ to the point of being denied by Christ. As long as there’s air in your lungs and blood pumping thru your veins you have the ability to repent and be saved. It’s not a one time denial that results in condemnation. Obviously Peter is an example of that.

We are going in circles. You are saying virtually the same thing I’m saying, but somehow when you say it, you are right but when I say it I am somehow wrong.

So, according to you, Paul (who DIDN’T deny Christ) can say he could deny Christ and Christ would deny him back, but Peter, who DID deny Christ is good because he repented. There is just no reasoning with this type of argument.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“Forced” is such an inaccurate characterization of what most who believe in the Doctrines of Grace believe. What we DO believe is that when God turns our heart of stone into a heart of flesh, it changes our nature from fallen to redeemed, and at that time we come into agreement with God’s will. It is not FORCED, we do it because we love and cherish the new relationship we have with God and want to follow his will for us.

Paul was undoubtedly a born again believer. That’s what makes 2 Timothy 2:12 such a powerful verse against eternal security. You’re saying that Paul can’t deny Christ because he was born again when Paul said the exact opposite. 2 Timothy 2:12 isn’t the only example. There’s James 5:19-20, Galatians 5:4, Colossians 1:22-23, Romans 11:17-23, John 15:1-7, Matthew 10:28-33 and many others.

Being a Calvinist how do you interpret Luke 13:6-9?

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How do you explain Jesus giving special attention to the “tree” and yet the outcome of the tree is still uncertain whether it will bear fruit and be spared or not bear fruit and be chopped down?

 

[A New Dawn]

Paul was undoubtedly a born again believer. That’s what makes 2 Timothy 2:12 such a powerful verse against eternal security. You’re saying that Paul can’t deny Christ because he was born again when Paul said the exact opposite. 2 Timothy 2:12 isn’t the only example. There’s James 5:19-20, Galatians 5:4, Colossians 1:22-23, Romans 11:17-23, John 15:1-7, Matthew 10:28-33 and many others.

Being a Calvinist how do you interpret Luke 13:6-9?

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How do you explain Jesus giving special attention to the “tree” and yet the outcome of the tree is still uncertain whether it will bear fruit and be spared or not bear fruit and be chopped down?

I am done going in circles with you. You clipped a small part of a verse out of context and have built up a sketchy theology around it. I’m fine that you disagree with me.