Source of Non-Ever Virgin POV

[Kristos]

Some will go to any length to support what they believe to be important, regardless of the evidence that deems it irrelevant.

And conversely as well.

 

[Catholic Christian]

And conversely as well.

Sorry to pile on you Ormly, but he's right

 

[Rick Otto]

Actualy it is simon who was right:
Quote:
Originally Posted by simonthezealot
The bible.

funny, the way I read the Bible tells me that she did remain a virgin.....

That is funny.

...so does historical Christianity for 2000 years......

Here we go, the older the error, the more correct it becomes...

...would love to see any ECF teachings that show any councils proclaiming or that prove otherwise, but I won't hold my breath....

Why not just read them & save the time spent on the scripture?

Plenty of non-Apostolics have been led astray by reading into the Bible what they want....or what they think......big mistake

And being "Apostolic" makes one immune from these "mistakes"?
I think that is funny, too.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Historically, what is the source of the teaching that Mary did not remain a Virgin?

I know of no such dogma.

While some Christians are of the opinion that Mary likely was not deprived of a blessed, normal, healthy, loving, mutual sharing of marital intimacies, there is NO Denomination known to ME that has a dogma of "Mary Had Sex."

The dogma is in the CC and EO. Those are the only denominations known to ME that state - as the very highest level of certainty and importance - that Mary Had No Sex EVER.

When did this view begin? I don't think anyone knows. Around 180 (some 80 years after the death of Mary and close of the Apostolic Age), Origen states that the Protoevangelium of James taught this view - but of course, we all know that he was mistaken, that rejected, nonauthoritative, noninspired book ever mentions anything about Our Lady's sex life after Jesus was born. There are some states from the 5th century that seem to indicate that at least some held to this opinion. It was made dogma in the 7th century.


I hope that helps.


Pax


- Josiah






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[CaliforniaJosiah]

the Bible tells me that she did remain a virgin.....

Would you be so kind as to quote the verses that state that Mary Had No Sex Ever?

so does historical Christianity for 2000 years

Would you quote ANYONE who believed that in the First Century?



There are only two denominations known to ME that have an official view (dogma in both cases) regarding the sex life of Mary and Joseph after Jesus was born, a dogma about how often they did it (both insist - dogmatically - it's zero). Since those are the only two denominations that have a doctrine on this issue, those are the only two denominations that have some proving to do.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Where is do the Scriptures mention the Second born of Mary or Third evt..? They don't because they weren't any.

Moot. There is no Dogma of Mary Had Only One Kid. Nor is that a dogma under discussion in this thread.

The issue here is the Dogma of "Mary Had No Sex EVER." It's dogma in two denominations (known to me) - the CC and EO. No other denomination (known to me) has any dogma about Mary's sex life after Jesus was born or how often Mary and Joseph "did it." No other denomination says anything about that - as doctrine anyway. Two do. You belong to one of them.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





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[Thekla]

the Oriental Orthodox (Coptic,ex) with whom we have not been in communion with since Chalcedon also have the ever-virginity teaching.

(it may be interesting for you to check the earliest extant teachings from all the Churches claiming apostolic origin)

 

[Thekla]

the Ethiopian Orthodox may be of greater interest in your study, btw; their canon is - IIRC - the largest Christian biblical canon and they claim to house the Ark of the Covenant in a chapel dedicated to (again, if memory serves) the Theotokos.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary was a woman blessed by God in marriage. Therefore she would have become one with Joseph for this is the way male and female were created from the beginning.

 

[Kristos]

Mary was a woman blessed by God in marriage. Therefore she would have become one with Joseph for this is the way male and female were created from the beginning.

That's completely extrabiblical ballyhoo.

 

[Thekla]

Mary was a woman blessed by God in marriage. Therefore she would have become one with Joseph for this is the way male and female were created from the beginning.

where in the Bible does it say they were married

the Greek just says 'betrothed' - meaning the legal responsibility of marriage but not the "privileges"

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

where in the Bible does it say they were married

It doesn't. Just as it doesn't say that Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin.

That's why there is no biblical basis for a Dogma that "Mary Had Sex" and nor is there any biblical basis for a Dogma of "Mary Had NO Sex EVER." Of course, the first doesn't exist. No denomination (known to me) has a formal doctrine of "Mary Had Sex." But two denominations (known to me) have a formal doctrine (in fact it's dogma) of "Mary Had NO Sex EVER."

Thus, the lack of substantiation is an "issue" for those two denominations with dogmas about her private sex life, not with those that don't.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[Thekla]

It doesn't. Just as it doesn't say that Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin.

That's why there is no biblical basis for a Dogma that "Mary Had Sex" and nor is there any biblical basis for a Dogma of "Mary Had NO Sex EVER." Of course, the first doesn't exist. No denomination (known to me) has a formal doctrine of "Mary Had Sex." But two denominations (known to me) have a formal doctrine (in fact it's dogma) of "Mary Had NO Sex EVER."

Thus, the lack of substantiation is an "issue" for those two denominations with dogmas about her private sex life, not with those that don't.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

many here say that Mary had other children: sex is typically needed for this to occur. As the Bible does not say that Mary and Joseph married, the conclusion can be reached that Mary and Joseph were "regular lawbreakers".

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

many here say that Mary had other children: sex is typically needed for this to occur.

Many at CF say that Bush is evil and state that alien abductions are real, that doesn't mean that those are Dogmas in any Protestant denomination....

Protestants - just like Catholics and Orthodox - are generally welcome to have opinions, as long as those don't conflict with official doctrines (and some denominations aren't too picky about that, lol). I tend to think that Mary was not punished for her faith and faithfulness by being deprived of a blessed, loving, mutual sharing of marital intimacies - but that's (at most) my own pious opinion. I don't even know that she was technically married, much less if she and Joseph ever "did it" and if so - how and how often. To be perfectly blunt, I kinda figure that it's none of my business. I don't even know how often my parents "do it" (and frankly, I don't WANT to know) so why should I care how often Mary "did it?"

But I think that perhaps you are missing the point here. Protestants have no doctrine on Mary's sex life and the frequency of "doing it." Just like those in the earliest church, we have no doctrine on this. Two denominations do (since the 7th century, anyway). I think you belong to one of them. Thus, it is the role of the two with dogmas about how often she did it that have the "burden of proof" and the need to substantiate and verify (and I would argue to tell us WHY it is soooooooooooo important - an issue of highest importance and certainty). Since Protestants have no more of an official position on this than on the issue of alien abductions, we have no need to substantiate anything.





Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[MamaZ]

That's completely extrabiblical ballyhoo.

How so? For we see that God commanded Joseph to take Mary as his wife. We also see that in the beginning God created them male and female and told them to be fruitful and mulitply. Now if man and woman are told to be fruitful and multiply then why would not Joseph and Mary who are obedient servants to the Lord disobey what has been commanded?

 

[MamaZ]

where in the Bible does it say they were married

the Greek just says 'betrothed' - meaning the legal responsibility of marriage but not the "privileges"

So when God commanded Joseph to take Mary as His wife then you are trying to say to me that Joseph being an obedient servant of the Lord would have disobeyed God and not done as He told Him to? And I am to believe this because some want to uplift Mary in a postion that the scriptures no where lift her to?

 

[Thekla]

Many at CF say that Bush is evil and state that alien abductions are real, that doesn't mean that those are Dogmas in any Protestant denomination....

Protestants - just like Catholics and Orthodox - are generally welcome to have opinions, as long as those don't conflict with official doctrines (and some denominations aren't too picky about that, lol). I tend to think that Mary was not punished for her faith and faithfulness by being deprived of a blessed, loving, mutual sharing of marital intimacies - but that's (at most) my own pious opinion. I don't even know that she was technically married, much less if she and Joseph ever "did it" and if so - how and how often. To be perfectly blunt, I kinda figure that it's none of my business. I don't even know how often my parents "do it" (and frankly, I don't WANT to know) so why should I care how often Mary "did it?"

But I think that perhaps you are missing the point here. Protestants have no doctrine on Mary's sex life and the frequency of "doing it." Just like those in the earliest church, we have no doctrine on this. Two denominations do (since the 7th century, anyway). I think you belong to one of them. Thus, it is the role of the two with dogmas about how often she did it that have the "burden of proof" and the need to substantiate and verify (and I would argue to tell us WHY it is soooooooooooo important - an issue of highest importance and certainty). Since Protestants have no more of an official position on this than on the issue of alien abductions, we have no need to substantiate anything.





Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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as I pointed out in another thread, the Oriental Orthodox have the same teaching; I also cited Hippolytus (a quote from the early 3rd c.) which contains the teaching.

is the Bible dogma among protestants ? or is it "optional" in formulating belief/dogma (as - per many conversations on here, and much online reading, it is repeatedly mentioned that Mary had other children...)

 

[MamaZ]

They were already betrothed before the angel of the Lord came to Mary. It was after the fact that God told Joseph to take mary as His wife..

 

[MamaZ]

Probably because the scriptures tell us she did..

 

[Thekla]

How so? For we see that God commanded Joseph to take Mary as his wife. We also see that in the beginning God created them male and female and told them to be fruitful and mulitply. Now if man and woman are told to be fruitful and multiply then why would not Joseph and Mary who are obedient servants to the Lord disobey what has been commanded?

it says "woman" which is a term applied to a woman of any age and can also mean wife -- your translator is relying on their "tradition" in translating this term